Questionable pre-flop call?

[Sykes]

At first, I thought it was a fine call pre-flop, but talking about it with another who thinks that it was a questionable call. What do you think?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (16.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

[milesdyson]

I call this for shizzle. You have good relative position and are going to be getting somewhere around 6:1 on this call.

Rest of the hand is money style.

[adsman]

KJ suited is a great hand. In fact, I would consider 3 betting here to take the button and knock out those pesky blinds.

[bottomset]

KJs is often dominated hence making it bad to play against a raise HU or 3handed, it looks like you'll be 4-7handed here, which helps as toppair(the hand that formerly gets you in trouble) wins less often domination isn't as big of concern, KJs plays pretty well in multiway pots so i don't think this is a bad call given you have good postflop position

otherwise nice hand

[zeropotential]

I deffinitly don't 3-bet this, especially with an early raise. KJs is very prone to being dominated. Usually I fold KJs to a raise, but because two people have already cold called, and you're in what is likely to be last position I will call as well. Suited hands like this play well in multiway hands when they flop strong flush draws

[gchaos]

With 4 people already committed and the possibility of the blinds coming along for the ride, I would absolutely play KJs. You have a very good hand and position on the raiser.

[Sykes]

Thanks guys. I figured I played the hand correctly, just wanted to get some reassurance (sp?).

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I deffinitly don't 3-bet this, especially with an early raise. KJs is very prone to being dominated. Usually I fold KJs to a raise, but because two people have already cold called, and you're in what is likely to be last position I will call as well. Suited hands like this play well in multiway hands when they flop strong flush draws

[/ QUOTE ]

The reasons I would consider raising are thus:

1. You get the button (hopefully). Don't forget how important position is, especially in a mulitway pot. There was a post in this forum yesterday on that very topic. Paying a half bet extra preflop can get you that. It's worth it.

2. Knock out the blinds. You want KJs for the multiway potential. I had a very similiar KJs hand to this a little while ago. I didnt reraise preflop, just called. The flop came all my suit. The fourth of the suit came on the turn. The BB had the lone corresponding Ace. I lost a big pot.

3. Reraising preflop only with AA-QQ and AKs etc can get predictable. Mix your play up a bit. (not necessary for micro limits I know, but just something to consider.)

[bos]

[ QUOTE ]

3. Reraising preflop only with AA-QQ and AKs etc can get predictable. Mix your play up a bit. (not necessary for micro limits I know, but just something to consider.)

[/ QUOTE ]

When it's just you and the raiser, reraising is a good play. In late position, you could even occasionally raise folding hands like JTs or even T9s. But, with callers already in, it's much more compelling to induce a huge multiway pot where KJs flush and straight chances shine.

In a tight game, it would be better to fold this one with the action to you. You don't want to end up 3 or 4-way against the spectacular hands that the early position players would have had in a tight game. If this were a tight game, you'd be as likely as not to be double-dominated by AJ and KQ. And if not, you'd be fighting at least one pocket pair.

[@bsolute_luck]

would it be possible to see what every1 had at the end? i have guesses i'd like to know if they're right /images/graemlins/grin.gif

call/raise would be dependent on table condition and player reads wouldn't it? if you think a raise would push off the pesky limers, then raise. if you're pretty sure they'll all call regardless, i'd just call.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Knock out the blinds. You want KJs for the multiway potential. I had a very similiar KJs hand to this a little while ago. I didnt reraise preflop, just called. The flop came all my suit. The fourth of the suit came on the turn. The BB had the lone corresponding Ace. I lost a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why reraise to knock people out when you're looking for an inexpensive multiway flop? Yuck.

Coldcalling here is close; I think it's fine. Your postflop play is good.

Rob

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
call/raise would be dependent on table condition and player reads wouldn't it? if you think a raise would push off the pesky limers, then raise. if you're pretty sure they'll all call regardless, i'd just call

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know the blinds will call regardless, aren't you getting extra equity on the reraise? Why wouldn't you reraise here for value on the loose callers? I don't understand why you would want to get rid of these guys, as if you are so sure you are dominated it seems to me that you need those players in the pot to improve your chances... help please?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
aren't you getting extra equity on the reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because you're possibly dominated. The domination is offset by position and suitedness and the fact that you (hopefully) play better postflop than your opponent.

You're looking to see a flop and see how much you can extract postflop -- pushing your edge preflop when you may be dominated is certainly -EV.

Rob

[SeeWillie]

Does anyone else think the turn call is a close one? Getting 13:1 pot odds, not closing out the action. The A is about the worst card to see, except maybe a /images/graemlins/club.gif.

The A is probably out there with so many players, so you probably don't have the best hand right now. The two Js, three Ks, and the four Qs improve your hand, so you appear to have as many as 9 outs to improve. But the Q/images/graemlins/club.gif and K/images/graemlins/club.gif put 3 to the flush on the board. So, down to seven clean outs. Any Q chops with a lone K, reducing the pot odds. I am not sure how to discount that - any help? The two clean Ks only give you two pair, and you lose to a lone Q and any AK, AJ, AT, or the unlikely A3.

I am not saying it was the wrong move, just close. Curious what others think.

Oh, and nice job hitting one of your 2 best outs, hope UTG+2 didn't have KQ /images/graemlins/shocked.gif!

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else think the turn call is a close one? Getting 13:1 pot odds, not closing out the action. The A is about the worst card to see, except maybe a /images/graemlins/club.gif.

The A is probably out there with so many players, so you probably don't have the best hand right now. The two Js, three Ks, and the four Qs improve your hand, so you appear to have as many as 9 outs to improve. But the Q/images/graemlins/club.gif and K/images/graemlins/club.gif put 3 to the flush on the board. So, down to seven clean outs. Any Q chops with a lone K, reducing the pot odds. I am not sure how to discount that - any help? The two clean Ks only give you two pair, and you lose to a lone Q and any AK, AJ, AT, or the unlikely A3.

Nice job hitting one of your 2 best outs, hope UTG+2 didn't have KQ /images/graemlins/shocked.gif!

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got 6 outs, with 4 outs that are to a chop sometimes, which means about 5 effective outs, which is more than enough to call here getting 13:1 in a big pot.

Rob

[@bsolute_luck]

what is "chop"?

[SeeWillie]

A "chop" is splitting the pot with another (or even two or three other) player(s). In other words, a tie.

[wabe]

I like the call, but I can't explain why, which doesn't bode well for me usually. I like the flush possibilities, as well as the good pair/good kicker combinations. Coupled with your position and the two coldcallers, I play the same.

I play the rest the same as you.