BIG HAND

[stew77]

5/10 NL Pokerstars, hero in the BB with about 700, sb has about the same and villain has just over 2k.

Hero dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Sb raises to 40 hero calls, villain calls from MP

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB bets $50, hero calls Villain raises $210

whats my play?!?! / did i play this all wrong?

[random]

What did SB do?

[AZK]

Shove the rest of your stack in.

[Utah]

Push. There is appox. 430 in the pot and you have 610 left. Even if you are called you are likely getting a great price on your draw.

You are almost even money if villian has A,K or K,10
You are only 2/1 against a set

[Voltron87]

Flat call the 210, one of them has a set and I don't think they are both going to call. Auto push the turn no matter what comes off.

[Yeti]

"Auto push the turn no matter what comes off."

Awful advice. Push the flop instead.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Flat call the 210, one of them has a set and I don't think they are both going to call. Auto push the turn no matter what comes off.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you think one has a set, why would you push on the turn?

that means you may kill you action if your outs hit, or that you are pushing on a blank which makes you a big dog.

push the flop hero, you dont have enough to worry about anything here.

hope it worked out.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Flat call the 210, one of them has a set and I don't think they are both going to call. Auto push the turn no matter what comes off.


[/ QUOTE ]

I use to make this mistake quite a bit as well. Hero has to push pre-flop while getting correct odds to do so and perhaps some folding equity along with it.

Lawrence

[Voltron87]

IMO they are not both going to fold to a flop push, but if another broadway card comes 77 might fold if he isn't too smart. In retrospect autopushing the turn isn't my brightest idea ever but I think a flop push is pointless, I will push with draws like this but not if I am sure I will get called.

[Wayfare]

[ QUOTE ]
Flat call the 210, one of them has a set and I don't think they are both going to call. Auto push the turn no matter what comes off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse than folding.

[kirisim]

"Push preflop" Lawrence? Are you kidding?!

You meant "push on the flop," right?

[Popinjay]

If you put one of them on a set, which is probably true, you are 33-66 to win. Pushing the flop sounds like a bad idea. Call for the turn only if you think you will get paid off when you hit.

[vegas]

What did the SB do? If he flat calls you could get your price to just call. With three Jacks for a straight you have 12 outs excluding the fact that 3 Aces might be outs as well. So with 12 outs you're 2.9 to 1 to see the turn. So I think it is important to tell us what the SB did.

I forgot that SB was already in for $50. So I take that back you wouldn't get you price if he just calls. I would push on the flop.

[Popinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
What did the SB do? If he flat calls you could get your price to just call. With three Jacks for a straight you have 12 outs excluding the fact that 3 Aces might be outs as well. So with 12 outs you're 2.9 to 1 to see the turn. So I think it is important to tell us what the SB did.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way you have A outs is if MP has 89h, which I doubt.

[vegas]

[ QUOTE ]

The only way you have A outs is if MP has 89h, which I doubt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I understand what you mean. I stated that he has 12 out with three more jacks for the straight but did not think 15 outs was right to add b/c we are not sure that villian does not have a set.

[Popinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The only way you have A outs is if MP has 89h, which I doubt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I understand what you mean. I stated that he has 12 out with three more jacks for the straight but did not think 15 outs was right to add b/c we are not sure that villian does not have a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

A = ace, but yea they are definetly not outs here.

[quix0tic]

The rule for this situation is usually push. Thats just a heuristic however and there are exceptions to every rule. Going strong with draws is clearly very contingent on fold equity, which I find quite lacking in this spot. Folding is obviously weak with a hand this good. Calling means you are drawing out of position and will be shut out if the turn bricks. Pushing is the obvious good play but it should be said villain seems very likely to have top2, bottom or mid set. All of these hands are going to the felt and you do not have quite the overlay to draw against a set.

My play would be to reraise 350-400, leaving yourself maybe 100. It might seem like a small point but I feel like this bet screams strength a little more and provides marginally higher fold equity. The rest goes in on the turn regardless.

Having said that, I feel like calling is being unfairly bashed here. Against an unimaginitve tight player who will show 77 everytime, calling is a surprisingly good option. Against a trickey lag your fold equity is huge because he could have 89, JQ, small flush, etc. As pretty as the draw is, you are incorrect to push here if villain is 90% to have a set(ABC player). Call, hope for a jack (best) or at least a heart on the turn. Make a weak lead if you hit and check fold if you dont. Tight unimaginitive players incidentally are also ABC and not fantastic hand readers. No way they put you on a gutshot. You have fantastic implied odds for a jack and okay ones for a heart. I know we all want to see both cards with a draw like this but boo-fcking whoo. Wanting don't make it so.

[Cornell Fiji]

Push.

-Steve

[quix0tic]

hes gonna show 77.

-jeff

[Ionphore]

As many players have stated, once MP raises, this is an easy flop push. People who are assuming you are up against a set are wrong. You could just as easily be up against 2 other hands like AK for the Sb and QJ for MP. If you have some reads like MP will only limp and then call raises with pairs, and hes very tight, then I can see folding as a possible option. But against typical opponents my stack is going in.

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
Flat call the 210, one of them has a set and I don't think they are both going to call. Auto push the turn no matter what comes off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Push on any turn card? Maybe I'm missing something... I don't think our fold equity goes up drastically enough on a blank turn card to make up for the halving of pot equity. I also think that our fold equity goes up sizeably when we hit, seeing as any of our nut outs are going to make an average opponent instantaneously crap their pants. We don't often want our opponents to fold when we're well ahead, and we especially don't like the smell.