Interesting preflop situation [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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einbert

02-24-2005, 03:44 AM

jason_t

02-24-2005, 03:46 AM

Cap. And it's not even close.

bernie

02-24-2005, 03:50 AM

I'd cap and lead the flop. 3 bet the flop if the button raises.

A limp reraise from LP indicates, more often than not, a drawing hand. Otherwise, why didn't he pop it the first time. This means he has to hit or he will likely check the flop. If he limped in EP, the flop will much more likely be bet.

b

Schizo

02-24-2005, 04:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A limp reraise from LP indicates, more often than not, a drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the point of 3 betting PF with a drawing hand? I've seen this done before but it doesn't make sense to me.

jason_t

02-24-2005, 04:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What is the point of 3 betting PF with a drawing hand? I've seen this done before but it doesn't make sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you get a flop you like, you entice others to stay around and you can take in a nice pot.

Chairman Wood

02-24-2005, 04:10 AM

Gotta cap, I posted a thread once where I didn't cap AA preflop. It was concluded that (by some pretty respected posters) that the only time in SS that there exists an arguement for AA is when its HU and even then its iffy.

bernie

02-24-2005, 04:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What is the point of 3 betting PF with a drawing hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's 'limp 3 betting' with a hand preflop in LP.

It could be a small PP or a suited connector. Among other things, if they hit their hand, most won't put them on it.

b

The Dude

02-24-2005, 04:31 AM

Not capping here is pretty bad. Preflop is not the time to consider protecting AA.

Schizo

02-24-2005, 04:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's 'limp 3 betting' with a hand preflop in LP.

It could be a small PP or a suited connector. Among other things, if they hit their hand, most won't put them on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have a small PP or sc and I limped and then it gets raised and comes back to me, how many people need to call the raise before I can/should 3-bet?

The-Matador

02-24-2005, 04:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A limp reraise from LP indicates, more often than not, a drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the point of 3 betting PF with a drawing hand? I've seen this done before but it doesn't make sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it means a big PP. In this spot I would call and then hit him on the turn unless the flop is draw heavy, in which case I raise there. You're heads up with someone who like has a PP and is about and 80-20 dog to you. It's time to extract money.

jason_t

02-24-2005, 04:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No, it means a big PP. In this spot I would call and then hit him on the turn unless the flop is draw heavy, in which case I raise there. You're heads up with someone who like has a PP and is about and 80-20 dog to you. It's time to extract money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen limp reraises with 89s--QJs, AK, and every pocket pair.

bernie

02-24-2005, 04:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
how many people need to call the raise before I can/should 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Understand, technically, it's not really a +EV way to play preflop. You're giving up a bit implied-wise with a sc.

You want a big field when trying this.

b

Schizo

02-24-2005, 04:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Understand, technically, it's not really a +EV way to play preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what, it's -EV on this hand, but it changes you image for future hands?? Or is their another reason for it.

bernie

02-24-2005, 04:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No, it means a big PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it does.

b

bernie

02-24-2005, 04:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So what, it's -EV on this hand, but it changes you image for future hands??

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible. But if you rarely do it, your image isn't changing much.

[ QUOTE ]
Or is their another reason for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's fun to raise and build big pots.

b

Schizo

02-24-2005, 04:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's fun to raise and build big pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it's -EV??? Not something a poker pro would be expected to say.

einbert

02-24-2005, 04:55 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (20.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (11.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

River: (14.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.66 BB

Results in black below:
Button had QQ
UTG+2 had 69o for the win

bernie

02-24-2005, 05:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Even if it's -EV??? Not something a poker pro would be expected to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

What other reasons are there to raise like this? Building pots is fun.

b

jason_t

02-24-2005, 05:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's fun to raise and build big pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially in live play. This one was fun.

The Palms 2/4 Hold'em (10 players)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, UTG+3 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+3 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (22.5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+3 folds, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) 
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players) 
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Qh, 3h, three of a kind Q.
Hero has Jh, Th, Q high straight.
Hero wins 18.25 BB.

Schizo

02-24-2005, 05:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What other reasons are there to raise like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my point. Poker pro's aren't supposed to make -EV decisions. If this move is -EV in the short run, and it doesn't change your image so it remains -EV in the long run, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it.

This whole conversation, especially with a skilled player as yourself, is rather puzzling.

The-Matador

02-24-2005, 05:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, it means a big PP. In this spot I would call and then hit him on the turn unless the flop is draw heavy, in which case I raise there. You're heads up with someone who like has a PP and is about and 80-20 dog to you. It's time to extract money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen limp reraises with 89s--QJs, AK, and every pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's nice for you. It generally means a big PP though.

The-Matador

02-24-2005, 05:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (20.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (11.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

River: (14.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.66 BB

Results in black below:
Button had QQ
UTG+2 had 69o for the win

[/ QUOTE ]

It means a big PP, as I said.

jason_t

02-24-2005, 05:16 AM

You are a donk.

bernie

02-24-2005, 05:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's my point. Poker pro's aren't supposed to make -EV decisions. If this move is -EV in the short run, and it doesn't change your image so it remains -EV in the long run, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I recommend doing it or did I say that I did this? I told you why many other players do it.

That said, doing this once in a blue moon is far from a bankroll killer.

b

Schizo

02-24-2005, 05:29 AM

oh, sorry, I misunderstood.

Thanks for explaining it bernie.

The-Matador

02-24-2005, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You are a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

For someone who won't play me heads up to show me all your elite skills, you sure do mouth a lot.

jason_t

02-24-2005, 05:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For someone who won't play me heads up to show me all your elite skills, you sure do mouth a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said yesterday I don't have delusions, like you do, of being an amazing player. I also tend to respect the advice of others on this forum rather than mouthing off at those that don't think my plays are amazing.

Schizo

02-24-2005, 05:50 AM

What is a donk? Or Donkey?

jason_t

02-24-2005, 05:51 AM

donk (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=donk&r=f)

DeathDonkey

02-24-2005, 05:55 AM

You rang?

Shillx

02-24-2005, 05:58 AM

Fold for deception. Considering a call here is just wrong.

Cap it.

Brad

Bob T.

02-24-2005, 05:59 AM

Punish the weak. I know that I am ahead right now, after the flop.... If my opponents miss, they won't give me any more, and if they hit, the pot is already huge, you probabably won't be able to ever make them lay down any reasonable draw, so you may as well put in as much as you can while you are ahead.

Trix

02-24-2005, 08:12 AM

It´s sometimes a big pocket pair, but much more often not, atleast in my experience.