Home Poker Tournament that I cannot beat...

[The Legend]

Hi.
My name is Dave, and this is my first post to this forum. I have had incredible success online thanks to the advice of you fine people. I have about 50% ITM and 37% ROI on party 10+1's. However, I have found I cannot win in real life. Now, bare with me, I have only played a home game with friends, never at a casino. Now, these players are absolutely awful. They are loose passive to the extreme.

Now, here is how we play. It's a tournament, winner take all. Each player pays 20 dollars for 100 chips. Usually its only five people, but this week it was seven. It starts at seven o clock. If you run out of chips you can re-buy another 100 for 20 dollars until ten o clock. After ten no more re-buy. Blinds start at 1-2, and every 45 minutes increase to 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, and finally 5-10. Sometimes when 3 way or heads up the blinds are raised to 10-20. And sometimes they are also raised to 20-40 , but thats it. How would you recommend I approach winning this format?

This week I had KK and went all in and got called and beat by AA, and I had AA, went all in, and got called with a K3 offsuit, and got beat when he turned a K and rivered a 3. Now, that is just bad luck I know. But I have played tight aggressive, playing pairs, broadway, and limping with ace anything or greater than K 10.

The problem seems to be that since no one except me knows how to play, they see the flop with almost any hand and quickly two people build a huge stack lead, and I can't seem to overcome it...
I just keep folding the crap I'm dealt and eventually get blinded to death. Well, if anyone has any advice, I will be grateful. If you would like to know anymore of my situation, let me know and I'll be glad to share. I have read so much and studied so much on poker, yet I can't beat these fish who know absolutely nothing. It devastates my confidence. Bottom line, help me please...

[smoore]

OK dude, you're beating the party $10 STT handily but now you can't win against the local fish. You can play 10 STT's in a day easily but it would take you 2.5 months to do this home game 10 times. You may just be in a downswing for it. However, I can tell you my experience with the same problem.

1) I play too agressively. These people don't know how to lay down mid pair. Don't try to make them.

2) I don't trust my reads. They are very easy to read but I second guess myself far too often.

3) I don't bet my modest hands for value often enough. If I could just throw out another 3BB bet on the river more I could make more money. It's difficult to do this after they get that weird two pair on me a couple times.

4) I take my opponents for granted. This is the big leak in my game. These people wouldn't know a pot odd if it hit them on the head so I play like I'm playing against children. This is a huge mistake and I have nearly eliminated this particular problem from my game.

Your tournament sounds like a gold mine, LPP all over the place and a nice slow blind structure. As a STT player you know it's hard to win every time so I would suggest trying to flatten the prize structure some (homepokertourney.com). I assume the prize pool is pretty damn big because of rebuys. Since it's unlimited rebuy for 3 hours you should play a little crazy and try to double or triple up during that time. I wouldn't want to go to hour 4 with less than 400 chips.

After the rebuys you tighten up like a nun's fanny unless everyone else has tightened up in which case you steal as many pots as possible. As people start to get shortstacked/knocked out you can wake up and start really playing poker ala the STT forum. You'd better be playing some poker by the time you have 20BB and I'm sure you know about the 10BB rule. When you make it to the last blind limit then you're golden... just be patient and play your game. You will never reach your late game for STT play, the blinds are just too low to do that stuff.

edit: welcome to the forum, watch out for the zoo /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[homegame]

Responding to the response. Good stuff, could use the advice myself. Just need some clarification on your terms etc...

- LPP all over the place
- 10BB rule
- the zoo

thanks dude.

[smoore]

LPP = LOOSE PASSIVE/PASSIVE LP: play too many hands preflop, don't raise enough. /P: Passive after the flop, those weirdos that never raise you even though they caught two pair on thier strange hand. You love these guys, they are the ones that are in 50% or more hands and they think that raising before you see the flop is worthless. I can be categorized as a SLAA - semi loose agressive/agressive. I'm in with almost 30% of my hands and I'm always betting or raising, rarely calling.

the 10BB rule = If you're in a tournament and you have 10BB (big blinds) or less (some say 7BB) you either push or fold preflop. You don't screw around. If the blinds just went up to 50/100 and you have 900 chips you either push or fold. Although it sounds odd it's pretty standard and is a sound strategy.

the zoo = the "Internet" forum here at 2+2. It gets wacky.

[jojobinks]

i'm with smoore on most of his points. i have posted about this before, and sometimes share your pain.

my rules:
1) never bluff (or semibluff) unless the point is to get a competent player to fold.
2) never overplay a hand. because i think i'm the best player at the table, why go all in facing a raise with TT or AKs? he won't fold, and i'm just increasing my volitility.
3) value bet decent hands.
4) just because they suck doesn't mean they don't get big hands. also known as: just because you're better than them doesn't mean your KJ isn't facing AK.
5) tilt control is a must.
a story: you raise 3xbb with AQ and get one caller. flop comes QT3 rainbow. you bet 2/3 the pot. he calls. turn is an 8. you bet 1/2 the pot, he calls. the river is an 5. you bet (or check), and he calls (or checks). he flips Q5 and takes the pot.

what to do: take a deep breath. count to ten. take a leak. do whatever you need to do to keep from steaming. this is when i overplay hands if i don't watch myself.

6) keep on playing in this game. even as the best player in the game, you'll never win more than, say, twice your share. aim for that. if the game is usually 5 guys, aim to win 40% of them. if there are 11 guys, you'll want to win 20%. it may seem like you never win; but if you're being reflective and analytical about your play, you'll get there.

[The Legend]

Thanks for all this good feedback. Yea, I definitely am playing real tight, even during the re-buy period. Perhaps that needs to stop. So, smoore, you said you play 30% of flops. So by my estimation, would that be any pair, any ace, any broadway, any suited connector. Or even more than that? You definitely understand the game I am playing. They NEVER raise pre-flop unless they got something really good, and even then, its a rarity. And if they do, its a minraise. In fact, everyone almost always minraises when they do raise(aka 100 chips in the pot and raise it 10 or whatever). Anyone else will call all day long. By the end of the 3 hours, everyone else is usually drunk and wasted. I don't drink, or I just have one beer. So, any advice on how to handle drunk, horrible players would also be sweet.

Anyway, when I do get a decent hand, I'll raise pre-flop(sometimes) 2 or 3 BB, and early in the game when its 1-2 or 2-4 blinds most everyone will call anyway...

So, with five people playing, for the first three hours during re-buy time, what hands should I play? The thing is, if anyone has a flush draw, they will chase, usually even with pot sized bets. A week ago I went all in with trips on the turn with 2 to a flush on the board, and someone called with just the flush draw. I won a nice pot there...

I just want to know how crazy aggressive and how loose I should be during that re-buy period. There is always one or two of those crappy players who gets a huge stack by getting lucky earlier, and I can't compete with my short stack due to tightness. Re-buying then becomes worthless because 100 chips agaist two 400 and 500 stacks isn't much...

Oh, and heres the funniest thing all last night. One kid called an all-in with pocket 5s with 5 overcards on the board. He lost obviously. Lets just use that to set the bar of my competition here. This is another reason why losing to these fish devastates my confidence...

One more thing- Last night, with seven people and re-buys everywhere, there was 360 dollars in the pot. It usually gets into the upper 200's even with 5 people. So there is a ton of money to be won from bad players. In the last three times though, I've lost $40, $40, and this week $60.

Another side note, this game is also really slow, due to the guys being drunk and what not. Probably only 15 hands per hour , if even that.

So... to sum it up
How Dave drunk people beat, win money, buy lap dance???

[jojobinks]

btw, you should definitely be aggressive with strong holdings. if you raise 5xbb with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and AQ, you may still get 5 callers, but at least you'd be forcing them into big mistakes. consider it a value raise.

in my game, btw, although players like to play every hand, if i raise 5xbb, i'm sure to get heads up or at least a 3way pot. unlike suited connectors/suited aces, that's what i want with big holdings. with 2-3xbb raises, you're enabling the fish to suck out on you. they don't know 3xbb is a good sized raise. they do recognize 5xbb, though.

[coyote]

You need to loosen up a bit. You're not playing at a full table. With only 5 players in the game, hands that are easy folds at a table of 10, can become calling/raising hands. If you sit around and wait for premium hands, you will get blinded off, just like you said.

[The Legend]

Oh yea, with AA , KK , QQ, AK , I'll definitely start pumping out 5x BB. But with seven or five players, here is a situation that messes me up. I have top pair , low kicker. Should I bet or raise with it, or fold or check. Or if I have middle pair, should I fold it to any bets. Last night I found many of my middle pairs which I folded to an early bet would've actually held up... in 3 or 4 way pot. Maybe that was simply a rare case. Personally, I usually don't value top pair low kicker much with that many people, but one time I folded it to a bet , and it would've held up for quite a nice pot, and another time I called, and I got beat by quad aces, which crippled my stack!!! Also, how bout top pair good or top kicker but its a low board, like 10 7 6 with two to a flush and I have K 10 or A 10? Muchas Gracias.

[jojobinks]

i bet tpnk if it's gonna isolate. if it has no chance against a large field, then forget about it.

middle pair? just b/c it woulda held up the other night doesn't mean jack, right?

i play for value with marginal hands. maybe passively call the fishies teeny tiny bets and hope to improve. then pound em if you make something strong. it's always cheap to draw in these games, right? what with the 20 chip bets into 200 chip pots.

[TheJunkyardGod]

I really like the chip structure of this game. The small blinds give you a chance to see alot of flops early (which i'm sure everyone is already doing)

I also have the same problem in my home game. One thing i've done to improve is to loosen up. If everyone at the table thinks holding any ace is worth seeing to the river, you can risk the chips and chase a few extra draws, when they hit, they'll pay off huge to anyone with, well anything.

Always find the player who thinks their alot better than they are. There's one kid in my usual game who, while i've never seen him leave a casino with money, thinks he's a great player. He constantly tries to bluff, and puts off tells more blatantly than an actor. I read him like a book and, provided my hand holds up to whatever he's chasing (and it really can be whatever)i'll take him for all he's worth.

It's taken me forever to realize this, but i'm playing my friends. This isnt a casino where the people have a few hundred on the table and know what (at least for the most part) they're doing. I needed to remind myself that this is Johns Kitchen, not the Borgata.

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
So, smoore, you said you play 30% of flops. So by my estimation, would that be any pair, any ace, any broadway, any suited connector. Or even more than that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Position is everything. I can throw away 33 UTG (after I limp and it gets raised) but then play a suited one gapper to a minraise in late position. Yeah, you're getting the idea... You need to be able to hit your hand and still throw it away if you're going to play that trash /images/graemlins/laugh.gif I'll limp any suited King and sometimes a suited queen just for fun. I'm constantly limping into pots when everyone limps ahead of me, then I turn around and raise with trash in LP when there's only a few players. So actually I'm probably not being SLA-A, I'm probably closer to SLP-A with all the preflop limping. I don't mind giving up a little edge preflop because the're going to call anyway and I play well against them postflop. The other week I limped in LP with AA and hit my set on the flop. I got paid to the river by two players because, "Man! You *never* limp with AA!" Heh. By the way, I play 2/4 limit and $50 NL games online and Pokertracker says I'm TA-A or TA-N there (I seem to be right on the fence with the agressive/neutral postflop because it changes in PT depending on how I'm running). I am definitely using a different strategy for these loose home games but I also know most of the players well.

Don't get all-in with TPTK and you'll respect yourself in the morning. Don't go broke in an unraised pot. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jojobinks]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't go broke in an unraised pot. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

doyle and someone were talking about that last night!

[smoore]

Yeah, he first wrote that down in Super System and now it's a mantra.

[RRRRICK]

Raising pre flop with strong holdings in this sort of game acts as a pot sweetner. The real motive of thinning the field to 2 or 3 doesn't materialize because these loose players as you have described them seem to call with anything. If I were you I would limp in more with strong holdings/suited connectors/marginal hands and try to hit some cheap flops. When you flop a monster loose players are much easier to trap as they will call you. Take as many cheap flops and free cards as you can because you will never be able to make them fold there draws. I've seen players like the ones you've described go all in over the top of a healthy raise with a flush or straight draw against top two pair or set and of course hit there hand and knock a strong player out. Be wary of putting in all your chips unless you have the nuts or close to it. Don't get creative just play like a robot.

[The Legend]

Thanks everyone for some great advice. I'm licking my chops waiting for the next tournament. I can't find anywhere so many horrible players throwing out as much money as in this tournament. Today I played one 10+1 sng , and came back from 515 chips with four people left, to having 2000 vs. 6000 head ups, to winning the whole thing, so my confidence has been restored from my getting busted with AA and KK last night. ( also, the guy who won got AA SIX TIMES last night...)

But my point is, thanks for the good advice. I'll keep you posted on how I do at this thing next week...

[htc1278]

"I usually don't value top pair low kicker much with that many people, but one time I folded it to a bet , and it would've held up for quite a nice pot, and another time I called, and I got beat by quad aces, which crippled my stack!!!"

I hate it when my top pair weak kicker loses to quad aces. You should stop playing in that game--or you better be playing Omaha, in which case you should stop betting with top pair weak kicker...

[The Legend]

Just wanted to update you all on what happened in my tournament this week. We had nine people last night. We decided to divide into two tables of 5 and 4 and then combine when it got down to six. For the first three hours ,as before, re-buys. Everyone starts with 100 chips, blinds start at 1 2. We also decided to give second 25% of the pot and first 75%. Anyway, I played smart, slighty looser, got some chips early. I then got a top pair, middle kicker, and bet strong but got called to the end by a guy who got a runner runner flush and had nothing else, so I lost about 120 of my former 400 chips.(I eventually doubled up with KK called by someone elses 77, my kings held.) I also tried stealing a blind with K 6(on button) by betting 50 (had about 400 chips,five people left at final table) got called by a guy with J 8 or something, flop comes like A Q 8 and he checks, I check. The turn is like a 2 or something, I bluff 50, he calls, we check a blank on the river, and then he shows down the eights, wins like 100(I raised like 50 preflop with 10 as BB) chips off me. I thought I had a tell on him, as I was going to bet on the flop, and as I did he reached for his chips showing me he would call, so I just checked. He checked the turn, and as I reached for my chips, it looked like he was reaching for his cards to fold, so I bet, and he just called...

Anyway, it eventually got down to 4 people. I was getting blinded to death as I was getting nothing for cards. So I had about 140 left with the blinds at 5 10, got dealt 55. I went all in with it, got called by 10 6 offsuit or something. Flop comes A 10 3 or something. Turn blank. River 5 and I jump and scream and scream. Eventually, it gets down to three, and I have 300 chips versus two big stacks with about 1000 chips each. blinds raise to 10 20. One guy is pretty hammered though, and starts bluffing like crazy, to a point where I have no clue if he has a good hand or not. I just suck at reading these people I guess. Anyway, I get no cards so just keep folding. The blinds raise to 25 50, and I eventually put in my 50 blind with like 85 chips left. The other two are in, flop is rags to me so I fold. They keep betting and calling each other until the river, when eventually the drunk one goes all in. The other calls, has a pair while the drunk has nothing. So, I get into second place with one blind left to go... Its about 2215 in chips to my 85. I go all in about three times in a row. The first two we split, the last I lost.

So , to sum up, I got second and won $115, while only spending 20 to get in(no re-buys). The other dude won $345, having spent $100(4 re-buys).

So thanks for all the advice, it definitely helped me win here.

I really want to come in first though,for my pride and for the fact that most of the time they play winner take all. It seems like there is no particular action or thing I do which makes me feel like I am the favorite here.

Now, considering the players I play with suck, wouldn't know a pot odd if it bit them in the @$$, chase everything, almost always call(when its six players almost every flop has four or five people in it) with virtually no pre-flop raising. Some don't even realize that they have the best hand once the cards are turned over.

Lemme ask everyone. What actions or decisions do you make that make you the favorite over people like this.

Is it being able to read players to know if your middle pair or tpnk is good when the others bet, is it to wait for the nuts or near nuts and to have them pay you off. Is it just playing tighter when they are loose. I ask this because I just feel like despite all I know on poker, having read book after book and doing great online and playing all the time, I still don't feel like a favorite... Yet I do against decent players...

[smoore]

Sounds like you're getting it. 'grats. The reason you can't read that drunk is because he's not even sure what kind of hand he has. You're starting to understand that the bluff isn't going to be a very big weapon here and that stealing blinds is almost worthless in this situation. Hell, you felt that you had to push when you had 55 and 14BB. I never feel short with 14BB in a "decent player" tournament but in a wild and wooly one it's definitely short stacked.

so... no bluffing, don't bother to steal the unimportant blinds. You can't just sit there and peddle the nuts, but your TPNK is going to be good here more often than when you're against decent opposition. Use the check-raise to insult the manhood of people that it will work on, bet strong against the calling stations. In these games I'm usually not even afraid of getting all-in with some mid two pair. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong oh well.

[RiverDood]

Nice showing. Finishing in the money in a "luck fest" is a legitimate accomplishment on its own. Keep playing that sort of game and you'll get plenty of firsts, too.

Sounds like you did something very shrewd that other posters maybe referenced only obliquely. You gave the fish enough time to make mistakes. Big, ugly mistakes that opened the way for you to move ahead. The two chip leaders banging heads with an all-in near the end fits that definition perfectly.

It's so tempting in these sorts of tournaments to try to outplay weaker opponents on every hand. But then any sane/sober player is at the mercy of suckouts, misreads, etc. that can clobber you too early in the tournament, before you got a chance to grind them down.

Patience at these sorts of events is a great virtue. Sometimes you'll beat them. Often they'll lose to you -- if you just give them enough time to find the way.

[Munga30]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, considering the players I play with suck, wouldn't know a pot odd if it bit them in the @$$, chase everything, almost always call(when its six players almost every flop has four or five people in it) with virtually no pre-flop raising. Some don't even realize that they have the best hand once the cards are turned over.

Lemme ask everyone. What actions or decisions do you make that make you the favorite over people like this.

Is it being able to read players to know if your middle pair or tpnk is good when the others bet, is it to wait for the nuts or near nuts and to have them pay you off. Is it just playing tighter when they are loose. I ask this because I just feel like despite all I know on poker, having read book after book and doing great online and playing all the time, I still don't feel like a favorite... Yet I do against decent players...

[/ QUOTE ]

Value betting your decent to good hands because you know they'll call.

Limiting your bluffing and semi-bluffing because you know they'll call.

Entering hands in better situations than they do (e.g., widening your limping standards everywhere because the table's passive and you get great implied odds and you play better than they do postflop).

Having better grasp of tourney theory than they do (e.g., when to be conservative, when to open up your game, playing well with big and small stacks).

[The Legend]

An update on my stuff. I won. I freakin won this week. Same tournament format except winner takes all this week. It was the highest pot we had yet, $380 bucks. I put in my original $20 and did not have to re-buy in at all. It started with 8 people. Cards weren't coming early, eventually I hit some nice ones with 5 people left. The thing is I didn't even get paid off on my monsters. I hit a n inside straight draw at one point and put in a small bet, someone raised me and , like a dope, i throw all my chips in super crazily. He thought for a long long time, but finally folded. Had I slowed down I would have taken his whole stack.

I eventually did later. When down to heads-up me and the guy with me had exactly even chips, 900 to 900. I offered him a split of the pot and he refused. Biggest mistake he ever made.

Now I was getting slowly blinded out. At one point I was down to 600 vs. 1200. But my signature hand came when I was dealt 77 on the big blind. He completed his small blind and I checked.(blinds were 100 - 50) Flop came 264 offsuit I think. So I fired a 150 bet, he called. Turn came blank,. I pushed all in. Now, he knew the whole tournament that I had seemed tight and seemed to only bet with a monster(my going all in with the straight for one example). I thought I had the best hand, so I wanted him to call. He could probably read that on me(though he is a poor poor player), so he folded. Turns out he folded pocket queens... After that I just raised most flops and some preflop, he kept folding. Eventually he got blinded to about 200 chips, he pushed, I called with 87 offsuit(now my favorite hand of all time). He had A 4 suited, making him a 60 to 40 favorite or something. Flop came 9T4. Turn was blank, river was 6. I get the straight, win the pot , and win the whole thing. $380 bucks minus my $20 is $360. Not bad at all. Since you guys gave me advice, I have finished second and then first. Thanks a ton. Next on my list, WSOP main event...

[smoore]

Good job. Just another example of modifying your game to fit the opponents.

[stevea]

The Legend,

How's your game doing?