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jcm4ccc

02-24-2005, 02:52 AM

I have a feeling that I fold more often than I should, but I really don't know. Here are some recent hands that I folded. Any comments appreciated. I've also added a poll below.

#1

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t3255)
MP (t1240)
CO (t3430)
Button (t3185)
Hero (t1365)
BB (t1025)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to t825, 4 folds.

Final Pot: t950

#2 [deleted]

#3

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1805)
Button (t3920)
SB (t3410)
BB (t2775)
Hero (t1590)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Button calls t200, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t500) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Button bets t200, BB folds.

Final Pot: t700

#4

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t5168)
Hero (t1295)
SB (t2623)
BB (t1030)
UTG (t2575)
MP (t809)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, BB bets t150, SB folds.

Final Pot: t450

#5

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t4525)
Button (t105)
Hero (t2700)
BB (t6170)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds.

Final Pot: t200

#6

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t4875)
UTG (t1805)
Hero (t1400)
SB (t5420)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds.

Final Pot: t200

#7

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t3000)
MP (t4130)
Hero (t1525)
SB (t3220)
BB (t1625)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t200, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t600) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks.

Turn: (t600) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks.

River: (t600) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets t600, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t1200

#8

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1740)
CO (t2205)
Button (t3170)
Hero (t1950)
BB (t1645)
UTG (t2790)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
5 folds.

Final Pot: t300

#9

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t3705)
MP (t300)
Hero (t1070)
Button (t1650)
SB (t4520)
BB (t2255)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to t275, 3 folds, BB calls t75.

Flop: (t475) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

Turn: (t475) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

River: (t475) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t475

#10

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1837)
UTG (t3605)
MP (t4164)
Hero (t2090)
SB (t1804)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t400) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t1604 (All-In), BB folds.

Final Pot: t2004

The Yugoslavian

02-24-2005, 02:53 AM

Ummm. These are 'nice hands'?!!?

FYI: I didn't actually read the context, just scanned the hands.

Yugoslav

jcm4ccc

02-24-2005, 02:56 AM

Nine hands, not nice hands. I did hesitate before folding. Is it that clear-cut that these should be folded?

The Yugoslavian

02-24-2005, 02:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Nine hands, not nice hands.

These were hands I hesitated with before folding. Maybe I shouldn't have hesitated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. It's only 11 and I'm misreading nine for nice?!?!

Okay, I have too much detail work to get right tomorrow to stay up any later I guess.

FWIW, pushing the hands u outline probably have more to do with other factors than the actual hands.

Nite!

Yugoslav

jcm4ccc

02-24-2005, 09:49 AM

bump

hansarnic

02-24-2005, 10:17 AM

I may push 8 or 10 (very opponent dependent though).

6 is interesting.

Have a feeling pushing may be better as you are favourite over a random hand and a double up puts you back in the hunt for 1st, but my instinct is still to wait till the blinds get thru the other short stack.

adanthar

02-24-2005, 10:20 AM

Most are good. 5 is debatable but probably good. 4 and 10 have got to be pushed.

lorinda

02-24-2005, 10:23 AM

10 is the worst fold of the lot (I fold a good percentage of these though) because it is an opportunity to steal a march on the other two people who are 'level' on chips with you.

Lori

dfscott

02-24-2005, 10:55 AM

Ugh -- sounds like I'm too aggressive. I was only folding 1, 7, and 9, (and 8 about 50% of the time depending on a read).

nyc999

02-24-2005, 11:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
5 is debatable but probably good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it debatable? I know it's a good hand, but with a player about to be blinded out, wouldn't it be better to first get into the money and then start playing?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just thought it should be played differently.

sofere

02-24-2005, 11:12 AM

I agree except that 5 should only be pushed with AA,KK. Small stack is very likely out in then next 3 hands and you won't even have to post any blinds till then.

I also push #6 and about 30% of the time I push #8.

adanthar

02-24-2005, 11:26 AM

I mean that it's good as in good fold.

I occasionally complete there but against an aggressive, smart BB it's better to just fold it.

Potowame

02-24-2005, 11:39 AM

#1 Fold

#3 Easy Fold

#4 Fold or push, I lean towards push ( Player Dependent)

#5 I lean towards a push, But since the other player will be gone in two hands a complete is not horrible.

#6 You have to push , How in the world did you guys get 4 handed with 600 blinds?

#7 fold

#8 Hum, You still have time here, complete push or fold are all pretty close. This would come down to the BB, is he a calling station or weak tight.

#9 Fold

#10 thats a insta push

I am on the aggressive side when the blinds get to be this high. But , I usually have played very tight up till that point so my table image gives me alittle FE. It appears that you have been pretty tight also (since SS) so a push is going to get some respect.

e_fermat

02-24-2005, 11:41 AM

1, 3, 7, 9 are the only clear folds for me.

#5 - Is an interesting one which at these blinds I guess I'd think about for 2 seconds and then fold. I'd probably only push AA/KK here.

#6 - What was your thought process here? Between the ante and the blinds you will have to post 1050 chips in the next 3 hands so if you fold, you will either be all-in next hand or in the BB with any 2. JTs with a fold in front of you is far superior to your average next hand UTG and you still have a reasonable chance to steal. This is way too good of a hand to fold at these blinds.

#8 - Fold unless BB is tight in which case I raise 3BB.

Bigwig

02-24-2005, 12:26 PM

I fold 3,5,7, and 9. I push No. 1. It's simply too far from the bubble, and too good of a chance that you have the best hand. The pots laying 3:2, and by my estimate, you're a slight favorite. I push to shut out the BB (hopefully).

valenzuela

02-24-2005, 12:55 PM

On number 1 why on earth MP bet 2/3rds of his stack!, I would call and push any flop..MP might fold. Anyway to back up my statement Ill tell the story of when I doubled up without showing the best hand...i had T215 on the button and blinds were T200, it was folded to me and i got AJo, woo-hoo!! I go all-in with serious chances of doubling up against a random hand, it wasnt necessary BB folded and showed 73o.( he folded 30:1 pot odds )

TT_fold

02-24-2005, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh -- sounds like I'm too aggressive. I was only folding 1, 7, and 9, (and 8 about 50% of the time depending on a read).

[/ QUOTE ]

Great minds think alike! I would also only fold 1, 7, and 9... and I play on Party, where players are more apt to call all-ins with mediocre hands than on Stars.

Bigwig

02-24-2005, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold 3,5,7, and 9. I push No. 1. It's simply too far from the bubble, and too good of a chance that you have the best hand. The pots laying 3:2, and by my estimate, you're a slight favorite. I push to shut out the BB (hopefully).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to amend this answer. I'd fold No. 1. I thought the player was all-in when I gave my answer.

ilya

02-24-2005, 02:24 PM

1. Fold

3. Fold

4. Fold

5. Fold/Push/Complete/Do A Little Dance/Cry

6. Push

7. Fold

8. Fold

9. Fold

10.Fold

ilya

02-24-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4 and 10 have got to be pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

woah. no way am I gonna push my healthy stack in with these not-that-great hands.

The Yugoslavian

02-24-2005, 02:35 PM

I generally would push 4,6 and 10. How I would play 5 is player dependent. I very likely would push/fold/complete depending on how my opponent has been acting up to this point. I'd lean towards pushing number 5 much of the time as I don't think the big stack is crazy about calling you there unless he has a top tier hand.

Yugoslav

dfscott

02-24-2005, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 and 10 have got to be pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

woah. no way am I gonna push my healthy stack in with these not-that-great hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused -- either I'm getting cold cards all the time or I'm doing something else wrong. When I used to try and wait around for hands/spots better than this, I'd get blinded away every time at the 11s.

ZeeJustin

02-24-2005, 03:07 PM

Hand 1: The raise amount is scary, you are crippled if you lose, and your hand isn't that great. It's not an obvious fold, but a fold is certainly fine.

Hand 2: Deleted

Hand 3: Your only 2 options are shoving and folding. I think it depends on the table, but the greater the likelihiood of your shove stealing the blinds, the more likely you should be to shove.

Hand 4: This fold is bad. If you flip your hand face up, and then go all-in, you are in a +ev scenario (if not, it's very close). The fact that your hand is face down increases your ev significantly.

Hand 5: This is a bad fold. You have a monster hand, and will take down those 600 chips a large percent of the time. Sure, you may finish 4th 15% of the time, but if you double up, you're in great shape to win, and 600 chips isn't irrelevent in the least. Also, there's always a chance that the guy with 105 chips will survive one or two more orbits, and really hurt your stack if you play like this.

Hand 6: A fold is correct here.

Hand 7: Have you been paying attention to MP? Does his limp indicate a monster hand? If not, you have an easy shove.

Hand 8: Shove

Hand 9: This fold is fine.

hand 10: Not shoving this hand preflop is awful, simply awful. You have value up the wazoo with your strong hand.

ZeeJustin

02-24-2005, 03:13 PM

I'm really surprised to see players say push. This hand is essentially a coinflip. If you shove, there's a 50% chance that you finish 4th. You can wait and see what happens to UTG in the blinds. If he doesn't lose, you still have something like a 40% chance of doubling up. Losing that 10% is well worth waiting to see if UTG gets eliminated first.

Elem100

02-24-2005, 03:19 PM

What I want to know is; how on earth did #10 get any fold votes?!

NegativeEV

02-24-2005, 03:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really surprised to see players say push. This hand is essentially a coinflip. If you shove, there's a 50% chance that you finish 4th. You can wait and see what happens to UTG in the blinds. If he doesn't lose, you still have something like a 40% chance of doubling up. Losing that 10% is well worth waiting to see if UTG gets eliminated first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what buy-in Hero plays and the OP didn't say. At the $33's and below both SB and BB may fold to a push even though BB is getting close to 3:1 on a call. This FE makes a push correct. In the $55's and $109's FE is generally non-existent in this scenario and your comments are more applicable (I don't play $215's and can't comment, but I'd expect this to be true there as well).

ilya

02-24-2005, 04:05 PM

curtains

02-24-2005, 05:31 PM

Since these are at a lower buyin, I believe the BB will fold a lot of hands...maybe at least 30% of hands, as they usually don't really understand the whole pot odds concept.
However I usually fold here.

rachelwxm

02-24-2005, 05:53 PM

ilya

02-24-2005, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 and 10 have got to be pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

woah. no way am I gonna push my healthy stack in with these not-that-great hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never mind. I take that back.

ilya

02-24-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Fold

3. Fold

4. Fold

5. Fold/Push/Complete/Do A Little Dance/Cry

6. Push

7. Fold

8. Fold

9. Fold

10.Fold

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading ZJ's post and actually thinking about it, I realize that 4, 8 and 10 are all pushes. My big leak, playing too tightly with a medium sort of stack.

I do still think #6 is a push at the lower buyins, as you have more FE than you'd think.

jcm4ccc

02-24-2005, 06:14 PM

Here is a summary of comments to date, in ascending order of fold percentage. Hope I didn’t misquote anybody.

#10 – 25% Fold

adanthar: Has got to be pushed
lorinda: The worst fold of the lot because it is an opportunity to steal a march on the other two people who are ‘level’ on chips with you
Potowame: That’s a insta push.
dfscott: When I used to try and wait around for hands/spots better than this, I’d get blinded away every time at the 11s.
ZeeJustin: Not shoving this hand preflop is awful, simply awful. You have value up the wazoo with your strong hand.
NegativeEV: How on earth did #10 get any fold votes?

[ QUOTE ]

Big Blind is t200

BB (t1837)
UTG (t3605)
MP (t4164)
Hero (t2090)
SB (t1804)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

#4 – 28% Fold

Adanthar: Has got to be pushed
Potowame: Fold or push, I lean towards push (player dependent)
dfscott: When I used to try and wait around for hands/spots better than this, I’d get blinded away every time at the 11s.
ZeeJustin: This fold is bad. If you flip your hand face up, and then go all-in, you are in a +ev scenario (if not, it's very close). The fact that your hand is face down increases your ev significantly.

[ QUOTE ]
Big Blind is t150

CO (t5168)
Hero (t1295)
SB (t2623)
BB (t1030)
UTG (t2575)
MP (t809)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

#5 – 35% Fold

adanthar: Debatable [fold] but probably good. I occasionally complete there but against an aggressive, smart BB it’s better to just fold it.
nyc999: With a player about to be blinded out, wouldn’t it be better to first get into the money and then start playing?
sofere: Should only be pushed with AA, KK. Small stack is very likely out in the next 3 hands and you won’t even have to post any blinds till then.
Potowame: I lean towards a push, but since the other player will be gone in two hands a complete is not horrible.
e_fermat: An interesting one which at these blinds I guess I’d think about for 2 seconds and then fold. I’d probably only push AA/KK here.
Ilya: Fold/Push/Complete/Do A Little Dance/Cry
The Yugoslavian: How I would play is player dependent. I very likely would push/fold/complete depending on how my opponent has been acting up to this point. I’d lean towards pushing number 5 much of the time as I don’t think the big stack is crazy about calling you there unless he has a top tier hand.
ZeeJustin: This is a bad fold. You have a monster hand, and will take down those 600 chips a large percent of the time. Sure, you may finish 4th 15% of the time, but if you double up, you're in great shape to win, and 600 chips isn't irrelevent in the least. Also, there's always a chance that the guy with 105 chips will survive one or two more orbits, and really hurt your stack if you play like this.

[ QUOTE ]

Big Blind is t600

UTG (t4525)
Button (t105)
Hero (t2700)
BB (t6170)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

#6 – 37% Fold

Hansarnic: Interesting. Having a feeling pushing may be better as you are favorite over a random hand and a double up puts you back in the hunt for 1st, but my instinct is still to wait till the blinds get thru the other short stack.
Potowame: You have to push. How in the world did you guys get 4 handed with 600 blinds?
e_fermat: What was your thought process here? Between the ante and the blinds you will have to post 1050 chips in the next 3 hands so if you fold, you will either be all-in next hand or in the BB with any 2. JTs with a fold in front of you is far superior to your average next hand UTG and you still have a reasonable chance to steal. This is way too good of a hand to fold at these blinds.
ZeeJustin: I'm really surprised to see players say push. This hand is essentially a coinflip. If you shove, there's a 50% chance that you finish 4th. You can wait and see what happens to UTG in the blinds. If he doesn't lose, you still have something like a 40% chance of doubling up. Losing that 10% is well worth waiting to see if UTG gets eliminated first.
rachelwxm: Where does 50% come from?
NegativeEV: Not sure what buy-in Hero plays and the OP didn't say. At the $33's and below both SB and BB may fold to a push even though BB is getting close to 3:1 on a call. This FE makes a push correct. In the $55's and $109's FE is generally non-existent in this scenario and your comments are more applicable (I don't play $215's and can't comment, but I'd expect this to be true there as well).
ilya: At the lower buy-ins, I think it’s a push because you actually have FE.
curtains: Since these are at a lower buyin, I believe the BB will fold a lot of hands...maybe at least 30% of hands, as they usually don't really understand the whole pot odds concept. However I usually fold here.

[ QUOTE ]

Big Blind is t600

BB (t4875)
UTG (t1805)
Hero (t1400)
SB (t5420)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

#8 – 43% Fold

Hansarnic: I may push (very opponent dependent though).
dfscott: Fold about 50% of the time depending on a read
sofere: About 30% of the time I push.
Potowame: Hum, you still have time here. Complete, push or fold are all pretty close. This would come down to the BB, is he a calling station or weak tight?
e_fermat: Fold unless BB is tight in which case I raise 3BB.

[ QUOTE ]

Big Blind is t200

MP (t1740)
CO (t2205)
Button (t3170)
Hero (t1950)
BB (t1645)
UTG (t2790)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
5 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

#7 – 65% Fold

ZeeJustin: Have you been paying attention to MP? Does his limp indicate a monster hand? If not, you have an easy shove.

[ QUOTE ]

Big Blind is t200

UTG (t3000)
MP (t4130)
Hero (t1525)
SB (t3220)
BB (t1625)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t200, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

#3 – 77% Fold

Potowame: Easy fold
ZeeJustin: Your only 2 options are shoving and folding. I think it depends on the table, but the greater the likelihiood of your shove stealing the blinds, the more likely you should be to shove.

[ QUOTE ]
Big Blind is t200

MP (t1805)
Button (t3920)
SB (t3410)
BB (t2775)
Hero (t1590)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Button calls t200, 1 fold, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1 – 85% Fold

valenzuela: Why on earth MP bet 2/3rds of his stack! I would call and push any flop . . . MP might fold
ZeeJustin: The raise amount is scary, you are crippled if you lose, and your hand isn't that great. It's not an obvious fold, but a fold is certainly fine.

[ QUOTE ]
Big Blind is t200

UTG (t3255)
MP (t1240)
CO (t3430)
Button (t3185)
Hero (t1365)
BB (t1025)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to t825, 4 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

#9 – 87% Fold

[ QUOTE ]

#9
Big Blind is t200

UTG (t3705)
MP (t300)
Hero (t1070)
Button (t1650)
SB (t4520)
BB (t2255)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to t275, 3 folds, BB calls t75.

[/ QUOTE ]

ilya

02-24-2005, 06:16 PM

I retract my original comments.

lorinda

02-24-2005, 06:17 PM

Not a misquote, just a little out of context on top of me making it ambiguous in the first place.

(I fold a good percentage of these though) means I fold a good percentage of the nine hands, not of A9s's on the button .

Lori

jcm4ccc

02-24-2005, 06:18 PM

They're gone from the summary

curtains

02-24-2005, 06:20 PM

Oh I thought it meant that you would fold spades and clubs, but not hearts and diamonds!

Scuba Chuck

02-24-2005, 07:03 PM

Hand Six is an easy push IMO, for 3 distinct reasons:

1) on the bubble, waiting doesn't guarantee you ITM. You're still looking for opportunities to steal, and perhaps, double up.

2) The likelihood of getting called here by BB is high, IMO. And unless SB, big stack, has a hand, he is likely to fold to let BB play it. Due to the nature of this dynamic, it is still possible you might see BB fold. Reason 2 is, this still might be a steal opportunity, there is some, minimal, FE.

3) TJ suited runs very well "hot and cold."

Hand 10 is a blind steal opportunity, and you should exploit it

I think folding here is very weak tight. You have a larger stack than both of the blinds, and they are not likely to call you with less than top 5 or 10% of hands. (Unless you have a table read to suggest otherwise, of course) You have significant FE here, you should exploit it. I think this is a leak.

Scuba Chuck

02-24-2005, 07:24 PM

I'd like to discuss this hand more, as I think the "right" move, whatever it may be has enough +$EV to make a difference in all of our games.

Specifically, why is this a fold on the $55s plus? I understand, and agree, that there is little, if any, FE at the higher buyins, as a call by BB is correct.

To get things started, here are my thoughts.

Yes it is possible, that folding is putting pressure on the other shorty to "make the first move." Unfortunately, there are just too many potential outcomes to make this a high probability play.

Second, it seems to me that hero has 5 hands or so to play. What are the probabilities of finding a better hand, and better position? I don't think pushing TJsuited is a 50/50 proposition here. If we find that it is, what hands would hero push here?

Paul2432

02-24-2005, 09:02 PM

I accidentally voted for non-folds instead of folds.

Paul

mackthefork

02-24-2005, 09:19 PM

I fold 1,7,8 and 9 the rest I go all in preflop and pick up the blinds the vast majority of the time.

Regards Mack

mackthefork

02-24-2005, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree except that 5 should only be pushed with AA,KK. Small stack is very likely out in then next 3 hands and you won't even have to post any blinds till then.

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The BB is 600 here and theres an ante of 50 that means you have 2400 left after posting the SB, you have AJo which is fairly good against a random hand, so theres 1100 in the middle already. I really don't care about the guy with 100 the moneys going in and the BB should call with a lot of hands including dominated aces and jacks, this is a clear push anything else is just playing for 3rd spot.

Regards Mack

mackthefork

02-24-2005, 09:33 PM

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After reading ZJ's post and actually thinking about it, I realize that 4, 8 and 10 are all pushes. My big leak, playing too tightly with a medium sort of stack.

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Yeah first glance i said 8 was a fold, it looks like a push but i hate these ones with a passion.

Regards Mack

ZeeJustin

02-24-2005, 09:50 PM

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I really don't care about the guy with 100

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This statement is so awful that it makes your entire post worthless. The guy with 100 chips is crucial to this hand, and is reason enough to fold many strong hands (but not hands as strong as AJo).

adanthar

02-24-2005, 10:36 PM

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Yeah first glance i said 8 was a fold, it looks like a push but i hate these ones with a passion.

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I think the fact that it's specifically A2o makes it a fold. A2o is a very weak hand against most things that will call it and I would much rather push Kx. But the principle is a good one.

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This statement is so awful that it makes your entire post worthless. The guy with 100 chips is crucial to this hand, and is reason enough to fold many strong hands (but not hands as strong as AJo).

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I'm pretty sure Gigabet pushes this and I'm certain he'd be right to do that in a $200 or a Step 5. I'm also certain it's bad according to the ICM and a bad thing to do when the BB is not using third level thinking, which in a more typical game is, like, always.

In the games I play, I think pushing AK is breakeven.

ilya

02-25-2005, 12:02 AM

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Yeah first glance i said 8 was a fold, it looks like a push but i hate these ones with a passion.

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I think the fact that it's specifically A2o makes it a fold. A2o is a very weak hand against most things that will call it and I would much rather push Kx. But the principle is a good one.

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I hate the feel of pushing A2o. However, it's both +CEV and +icmEV if your hand is turned face up. And I gotta believe that the BB is folding quite a few better hands. Even if he calls with an Ace as weak as A8o, pushing the A2o is no worse than pushing the much-better-looking A7o. Matter of fact, A2o actually does minutely better against AK(s)-A8(s) than A7o does. And it does better against AK(s)-A8(s)/AA-88, too.

mackthefork

02-25-2005, 06:14 AM

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Quote:
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I really don't care about the guy with 100

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This statement is so awful that it makes your entire post worthless. The guy with 100 chips is crucial to this hand, and is reason enough to fold many strong hands (but not hands as strong as AJo).

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Please don't misunderstand me, I push far less here than if the short stack had the same approx as i do, I was overstating a point to get across that there is no way on earth I am folding this hand, surely it gives up so much in $EV and CEV that it's ridiculous to fold. I can't see the point in playing for 3rd in this spot, I might fold A9s here though, not sure if even thats too tight.

Regards Mack