Preflop raising stats for limit O8

[Ghazban]

Now that many people are running the new PokerTracker Omaha, what kind of preflop raise numbers do people have? I'm only raising about 3% of the time which is far lower than any other variant of poker I've ever tracked stats for (limit, no limit, pot-limit, TDL, stud). I've only got a few hundred hands so its a small sample size but I really don't raise much preflop in this game.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Now that many people are running the new PokerTracker Omaha, what kind of preflop raise numbers do people have? I'm only raising about 3% of the time which is far lower than any other variant of poker I've ever tracked stats for (limit, no limit, pot-limit, TDL, stud). I've only got a few hundred hands so its a small sample size but I really don't raise much preflop in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't want to raise preflop in omaha as much as in holdem due to the fact that a good hands edge is not as big when compared to the two card varietal. the only thing that raising a lot will acomplish will be a high amount of variance. that being said, there are two good reasons for a preflop raise: 1. to buy the button as acting last is a huge edge, and to get money in the pot. i will only do this in a hand in which there are many limpers and i have a solid holding in lp.

[Steve-o]

wrong wrong wrong.

you need to raise preflop in omaha 8 to maximize your wins, especially loose Omaha 8 where people won't fold A278 or A39Q to raises.

you need to eliminate players with true garbage hands that can take 1/2 the pot away from you and keep in decent but inferior hands to your own that you can scoop or win 3/4s.

my raise % on PT is around 9%. I hammer the pot with A2 and another wheel with a suited Ace and will cap if reraised I also raise A23 or A24 from late position after 3 limpers.

why are you letting hands like 8834 or TJQ4 in cheap? make them fold or pay double to play that crap, if they want to get lucky I'm going to make them pay for it.

why are you letting A269 play for 1 bet when you have A23K with a suited Ace? you have a great chance to quarter this guy and if he's real loose he may bet his low when your getting 3/4s.

on his website Steve Badger says "starting hands only exist before the flop" playing passive preflop is a mistake way too many people make, actually I shouldn't be saying this... forget everything i just said /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[beset7]

oh boy here we go again.

there are great long detailed threads about pre-flop raising in o8 and then a new one starts every 4 to 6 weeks. Many winning players disagree on this subject and there simply is no one right answer IMHO.

[BradleyT]

9% is insane. That means you're raising 50% of the hands you play - assuming you play about 20% of hands.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]

why are you letting A269 play for 1 bet when you have A23K with a suited Ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the deception value, and because you make most of your money on turn/river when betting is big.

Raising early tends to scare people off from committing more money on later streets, and it gives away your hand.

Its very difficult to quantify the bets you don't win because the A269 hand decided to check-call the turn instead of betting it into a field of fish, knowing your preflop raise marked you with A2xx.

However, I agree with beset that there are pros and cons to preflop raising and honestly am not sure whether its higher EV or not. But it definitely is higher variance.

--Greg

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
wrong wrong wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Winning friends again eh Steve-O? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[BradleyT]

Here's (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1342767&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=7&o=186&fpart=1) a good thread.

[Steve-o]

actually that 9% is wrong in my post above, it was 3AM and i was tired, sorry!

my real # is just over 6%, but all of my above comments apply

[Yads]

Mine is about 6.5% I think. I'm pretty aggressive, I open raise a lot from middle position with hands that do well against a small field.

[BradleyT]

It also depends on the limit you play. Open raising with AAxx doesn't do much good at anything $2/$4 or under, you'll still get too many callers.

[ QUOTE ]
9% is insane. That means you're raising 50% of the hands you play - assuming you play about 20% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry I don't mean to start a debate that apparently has happened many times already (not familiar with those threads). Let me simply interject that at low-limit, on-line O/8, my personal experience is that pre-flop raising in at least some of the instances listed is a must, particularly from EP.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
9% is insane. That means you're raising 50% of the hands you play - assuming you play about 20% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry I don't mean to start a debate that apparently has happened many times already (not familiar with those threads). Let me simply interject that at low-limit, on-line O/8, my personal experience is that pre-flop raising in at least some of the instances listed is a must, particularly from EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate? My experience at low limit loose-passive tables is that people who want to see a flop will come in whether there's a raise or not. Limiting the field from EP is almost impossible and you end up forced by huge pot odds to take a card off on the flop when you don't hit but have a lot of backdoor draws.

I don't know if, in the long run, this is more profitable than just limping but, in the short run, it seems to cause fairly large swings. Just my opinion; I don't know if I have enough hands played to say anything with any degree of certainty.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
9% is insane. That means you're raising 50% of the hands you play - assuming you play about 20% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry I don't mean to start a debate that apparently has happened many times already (not familiar with those threads). Let me simply interject that at low-limit, on-line O/8, my personal experience is that pre-flop raising in at least some of the instances listed is a must, particularly from EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate? My experience at low limit loose-passive tables is that people who want to see a flop will come in whether there's a raise or not. Limiting the field from EP is almost impossible and you end up forced by huge pot odds to take a card off on the flop when you don't hit but have a lot of backdoor draws.

I don't know if, in the long run, this is more profitable than just limping but, in the short run, it seems to cause fairly large swings. Just my opinion; I don't know if I have enough hands played to say anything with any degree of certainty.

[/ QUOTE ]

My experience is the opposite. Many players in the low-limit on-line O/8 games I have been playing seem to bail at the first sign of a raise from EP. So, for example, if I have what I'd call a playable but not primo hand (understand that I generally play few starting hands), I'll raise (a) to try to figure out where I stand and (b) to get the "phony" hands out. I'd like to know that if the flop is 5-7-8, it's unlikely that someone is playing a 6-9. A hand with a 6-9 in it probably does not play for a raise (although not impossible of course). And if the raise does not limit the field and I miss the flop, it's a fold. And what it did cost me, a single extra bet? I hope this makes sense and I have not failed to properly describe what I'm trying to explain.

[Ghazban]

I see what you're saying. In the games I play, I find myself having to play a big pot out of position any time I raise from EP. I'm far more likely to raise from LP after limpers with something like A234 with the ace suited that figures to get a portion of the pot a large percentage of the time (so, even if I get quartered, there's enough dead money that I still make a profit).

I've played some Omaha8 SNGs and, in those, raising is a completely different animal as limiting the field and picking up the antes are both possible. In the low limit cash games, neither thing happens often enough for me to feel like I need to be raising more, particularly from EP.

If I have A-2-3-4, I probably am not raising pf unless I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of callers, because (1) my hand is pretty much worthless if I don't get 2 low cards on the flop and (2) if I don't miss the flop, I want as many people making high hands as possible, as chances are I am going to get only 1/2 the pot at best. In most cases I would start pushing the hand after the turn.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
9% is insane. That means you're raising 50% of the hands you play - assuming you play about 20% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry I don't mean to start a debate that apparently has happened many times already (not familiar with those threads). Let me simply interject that at low-limit, on-line O/8, my personal experience is that pre-flop raising in at least some of the instances listed is a must, particularly from EP.

[/ QUOTE ]


What hands would you recommend raising with in EP?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
9% is insane. That means you're raising 50% of the hands you play - assuming you play about 20% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry I don't mean to start a debate that apparently has happened many times already (not familiar with those threads). Let me simply interject that at low-limit, on-line O/8, my personal experience is that pre-flop raising in at least some of the instances listed is a must, particularly from EP.

[/ QUOTE ]


What hands would you recommend raising with in EP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't really answer the question. It depends on the table. Maybe an example would be something like A-3-Q-K where the King is suited. I would raise in EP. Get rid of the pretenders. Maybe gets rid of the suited Ace. Gives me an idea of how many A-2s are out there. A lot of good can come of that raise ... and I get more information if I get re-raised.