Laying down a boat?

[AtticusFinch]

Early in a multi-table tournament, Hero holds t9s on big blind. One villain limps from MP. I don't recall exact stack sizes or blinds, but suffice to say our stacks were average and roughly equal, and the blinds were fairly low.

Flop is 99A rainbow. Hero bets 2/3 pot. Villain calls.

Turn is another ace. Hero bets the pot. Villain pushes all-in. Hero folds.

[curtains]

Cmon thats not a real boat!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AtticusFinch]

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Cmon thats not a real boat!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Is there some nuance to the term I'm missing, a-la the set/trips distinction? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[valenzuela]

lol, rather disapointing thats like folding 2 pair, and u hold 22 and the board is AJJ, well not really but u get my point.

[AtticusFinch]

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lol, rather disapointing thats like folding 2 pair, and u hold 22 and the board is AJJ, well not really but u get my point.

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Actually I don't get your point. In your example the board has missed you completely. Here it's hit me very hard.

[curtains]

It hasnt hit you that hard. You lose to any ace. Ok the flop hit you hard, but the turn probably killed you. The point is that a full boat is usually a powerful holding....here it isn't. Just as two pair is usually strong, but in his example it isn't, and shouldn't really even be termed as 2 pair.

[AtticusFinch]

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It hasnt hit you that hard. You lose to any ace. Ok the flop hit you hard, but the turn probably killed you. The point is that a full boat is usually a powerful holding....here it isn't. Just as two pair is usually strong, but in his example it isn't, and shouldn't really even be termed as 2 pair.

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Gotcha. Obviously I felt the same way, thus the laydown. I wasn't too pleased about it, though. (Epilogue: villain at least was kind enough to show his A4o)

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Early in a multi-table tournament, Hero holds t9s on big blind. One villain limps from MP. I don't recall exact stack sizes or blinds, but suffice to say our stacks were average and roughly equal, and the blinds were fairly low.

Flop is 99A rainbow. Hero bets 2/3 pot. Villain calls.

Turn is another ace. Hero bets the pot. Villain pushes all-in. Hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't play this very well, and I know from your posts you're much better than this. The turn is a horrendous card for you, and your bet on the turn is as -EV as ever there could be one. Put yourself in his shoes. Is he coming over the top of you with K-high for top kicker to the board's 2-pair? Uh, probably not. Does he hold JJ? Also, probably pretty unlikely. The turn A forces you to check and probably fold. If your opponent doesn't have the A, he might also check out of fear of a check-raise. If he doesn't bet enough, you might be able to "value call" once or twice in the hopes he's bluffing. If he throws any real chips your way, however, you're beaten.

--Zen

[curtains]

Agreed that pot sized bet on the turn doesn't sound appropriate in this situation.

[The Armchair]

The point is that you don't have the qualitative hand you suggest you have. If I complain that I got knocked out of a tourney when I had two pair, Jacks over deuces with an A kicker, that sounds like I got beaten hard. But when another player points out that I was holding 22 on an AQKJJ board, well... not so much.

In your case, anyone who is calling you when the board is A99, and you have T9, has either an A or a 9. That much is almost certain. Odds are, they have an A.

When the A comes, you have a boat. Sure. But who in the hand doesn't? Saying you have a boat is stating the obvious. A full house is no longer a good hand, let alone a great one -- it is the par hand.

Therefore, the AJJ example is proper, although D'd probably rather have a board of AAKK2 to make the point. How hard the board hit your hand is entirely irrelevent, for we do not award pots (or fractions thereof) to those players who hit the board hard but not as hard as the next guy. In both cases, someone else had a better hand than you. And that's what matters.

[AtticusFinch]

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You didn't play this very well


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Agreed.

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and I know from your posts you're much better than this.

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Thanks for that. Still, I haven't been playing all that long, and I make more than my share of mistakes at the table. (My answers tend to be much more sensible here where I have time to think things through more thoroughly). My turn bet was clearly a mistake, made more out of frustration than any coherent thinking on my part. At least I had the sense to fold to the raise.