Tight vs. Loose SSH Chart - Cold Cards and my VP is <13%

[Sasnak]

After reading SSH I adopted the tight charts which were quite a bit looser than what I had been playing. My VP was around 11 then, and AF was non-existent. (I didn't even care about AF until coming here after reading SSH.)

I must have had a decent run through .50/1 as I plowed through the 300BB wins with only one 70BB downswing in around 11,000 hands. Then I moved to 1/2.

Initially I was ranging between 50-100BB to the good, then went on a 200BB downswing. Got it back to almost even and I find myself yet on another 100BB downswing. Right now after 25k hands of 1/2 I'm 150BB down.

The killer part is my VP is just under 13%, and this is following the tight chart. My PFR has gone from almost nothing to 6.5. Albeit, I don't limp first in with Axs as I want a limper or two to give me some odds to hit. I also don't limp with pp's under 7 in EP, and not first in if in MP. In LP I'll raise with pp's first in.

My downswing has had some aggro plays involved like pushing 99 in EP against a LAG I've seen showing a high card after he has a raisefest with the other guy folding. (My timing seems to always be off in scenarios like this and my pair loses to a higher pair. Why can't I catch the guy chasing his Ace?) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Spending most of my day in the office reading old 'downswing' posts, I come to the conclusion I'm not alone. With a VP of under 13% I am running on cold cards, and when I do hit a hand like AK/Q, KQs and AA/KK I have two guys chasing draws which hit. It happens, no problem here with that. I understand the game and how it's played.

My thoughts are to possibly open up more and go with the loose charts for a few sessions and see if that breaks the cold run. Any of you utilize the loose chart more than the tight chart in 1/2?

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
Any of you utilize the loose chart more than the tight chart in 1/2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends what 1/2 game you are talking about. in a game with &gt;35% table VPIP (random guess), I think the loose chart is fine. just my opinion.

[fire_fly]

I think at least part of your problem is your interpretation of the charts. The "loose chart" is to be used when your table is loose (6-8 players per flop on average), not when you feel like playing loosely. The same goes for the "tight" chart in SSH, it's to be used when you are on a tight table. This might be causeing you problems, either playing too loosely on a tight table, or missing out on +EV opportunities on loose tables. Hope this helps.

[SlantNGo]

The charts don't take into account positional raising vs. weak limpers and how many limpers there are, just your position, so following the chart isn't exactly optimal play at 1/2 full.

[LowDown22]

I think you are looking in the wrong place. Your real problem is most likely your postflop play. If your postflop game is weak, adding more preflop hands will not improve your results. Post more hands for review.

[parappa]

I'm at VPIP 17, and have _never_ played from the loose chart. I've just never found a table that meets those conditions (6-8 routinely to the flop), and just about the only thing I disagreed with in the book was the "assume they're loose until they prove otherwise." I play from the tight guidelines, then if the game is loose (or just as importantly, passive) I'll start sneaking in with Axs, smaller pairs, earlier, etc. But I'll sort of test the ice with my toe before I go walking out onto it, and I won't loosen up much until I have a decent sense of what the table is like.

[KingOtter]

You need to work yourself away from charts, and understand why you're playing what you're playing when you're playing it.

Have a reason for the limp. 'I'm limping because if I raise I'll chase people out and this hand is good multi-way'.

Have a reason for raising. 'These cards get their strength as overcards, and so want only a few opponents'.

Once you get these reasons down, you'll know what to do when, rather than guessing which chart is best for the table. Plus when you start incorporating reasons based on players, you'll really be ahead of the game.

Early players fold, and 3 loose players limp in the pot and you're in CO with AJs.... Raise? Limp? Fold?

A tight player raises from EP and it is folded to you in MP2 and you have AQo. Raise? Limp? Fold?

HEPFAP is *really* helping me in this regard.

That said.... I always liked Shillx's response to this, which is probably macro'ed by now somewhere. 'Use tight charts in EP, then loose charts in MP and LP'.

KO

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to work yourself away from charts, and understand why you're playing what you're playing when you're playing it.

Have a reason for the limp. 'I'm limping because if I raise I'll chase people out and this hand is good multi-way'.

Have a reason for raising. 'These cards get their strength as overcards, and so want only a few opponents'.

Once you get these reasons down, you'll know what to do when, rather than guessing which chart is best for the table. Plus when you start incorporating reasons based on players, you'll really be ahead of the game.

Early players fold, and 3 loose players limp in the pot and you're in CO with AJs.... Raise? Limp? Fold?

A tight player raises from EP and it is folded to you in MP2 and you have AQo. Raise? Limp? Fold?

HEPFAP is *really* helping me in this regard.


[/ QUOTE ]

These kinds of decisions are still pretty hard for me. Like, I dunno, folded to me on the button in an ordinarily loose game. Blinds are loose. I have 22, A6, or something. I'm usually just folding this, but I know from my tournament experience that there is significant value here, I just don't know how to extract it. Since I read SSHE a few months ago, I've been following the "worry about post-flop" adage; perhaps it's time to return to some preflop things as well.

[Sasnak]

I'm in agreement with you but my VP concerns me. After 25k hands I would think it would be closer to 15% if not your 17%. Is a VP of 13% within reason for 25K hands?

Table texture, positioning, etc. are all a part of my game and decision on sitting down. I know why I limp with Axs and where and why I raise with a KQs and when.

Typically if I have a good drawing hand or made hand I'll re-raise the flop to test the intitial bettor. A common play is similar to what happened this afternoon. I raise AJs in EP get two callers. Hit TPTK with a flop of 25Jr. Turn is an 8 followed by the 9 on the river and MP1 hits his runners after CCPF with a QTs.

My big pockets getting cracked isn't a problem either, although it does suck! Lord knows I've cracked a few myself drawing to a straight or flush with pot odds and enough opponents staying in there. I was just curious if many played the hands out of the loose chart. I really don't want to, but I need to get a warmer deck of cards, ride out the streak, or open up my play a bit. I'm thinking I'll ride it out... tnx.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in agreement with you but my VP concerns me. After 25k hands I would think it would be closer to 15% if not your 17%. Is a VP of 13% within reason for 25K hands?


[/ QUOTE ]

When I started at nano-limits, I followed the tight chart to the letter regardless of context (i.e. I would call with 22 if it said call even if it was folded to me, etc.), and it seemed to produce about 16% VPIP, so my sense is that you must be playing tighter than the tight recommendations in SSHE. 25k hands is plenty for VPIP% to converge imo.

[Shillx]

The Tight Chart is too tight. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Don't get me wrong, the chart is a great tool for a newer player who is playing much too loose (and is looking to become tight aggressive). For someone who is already tight though, it might not be the best place to turn. Here is what I usually do when I play. Notice that this is for a fairly aggressive game. In an even more passive game, hands like A5s can become playable up front because there is no fear of a raise.

EP

Play: 22+, A8s+, K9s+, JTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo+
Raise: TT+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo+
Against a raise (usually reraise): TT+, AQs+, AKo

It get's much less clear in MP and LP becuase a lot depends on the # of players in the pot.

MP (Open standards)

Raise: 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QJs+, ATo+, KJo+

Limping in MP after limpers isn't much different then limping in EP. Use the EP hands, but add a few more like...

Play: Axs, T9s, 98s, J9s, T8s, Q9s as well.
Against a raise (no callers): TT+, AQs+, AK

LP (3+ limpers)

Play: 22+, Axs, Kxs, Q6s+, J8s+, 86s+, 54s+, ATo+, KJo+, QJo, QTo, JTo, T9o (maybe a few more offsuit hands as well)
Raise (4 limpers): 77+, A7s+, K8s+, J8s+, 97s+, 87s+, AJo+, KQo+

Notice that almost every suited hand that you are playing, you are bringing in for a raise. This isn't totally accurate, but it should give you a clue as to some important preflop raises that you are probably missing out on. A coldcalling chart is hard to produce because it depends on too many things (how many coldcallers are there, where did the raise come from). You have you use your best judgement when coldcalling raises.

Hope this helps.

Brad

[DMBFan23]

Shill,

I think the tight chart is fine for the games it describes...ie, 3-5 to the flop on average for the tight chart. so it's a pretty multiway-centric chart, not much isolating or openraising described if I remmeber correctly. at Party 1/2, you're gonna come across these situations, and it's opening up your game with moves like raising one limper to you on the button with A9o that's gonna get your VP$IP up

that said, if you cant play well postflop then it dont matter

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
The Tight Chart is too tight. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Don't get me wrong, the chart is a great tool for a newer player who is playing much too loose (and is looking to become tight aggressive). For someone who is already tight though, it might not be the best place to turn. Here is what I usually do when I play. Notice that this is for a fairly aggressive game. In an even more passive game, hands like A5s can become playable up front because there is no fear of a raise.

EP

Play: 22+, A8s+, K9s+, JTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo+
Raise: TT+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo+
Against a raise (usually reraise): TT+, AQs+, AKo

It get's much less clear in MP and LP becuase a lot depends on the # of players in the pot.

MP (Open standards)

Raise: 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QJs+, ATo+, KJo+

Limping in MP after limpers isn't much different then limping in EP. Use the EP hands, but add a few more like...

Play: Axs, T9s, 98s, J9s, T8s, Q9s as well.
Against a raise (no callers): TT+, AQs+, AK

LP (3+ limpers)

Play: 22+, Axs, Kxs, Q6s+, J8s+, 86s+, 54s+, ATo+, KJo+, QJo, QTo, JTo, T9o (maybe a few more offsuit hands as well)
Raise (4 limpers): 77+, A7s+, K8s+, J8s+, 97s+, 87s+, AJo+, KQo+

Notice that almost every suited hand that you are playing, you are bringing in for a raise. This isn't totally accurate, but it should give you a clue as to some important preflop raises that you are probably missing out on. A coldcalling chart is hard to produce because it depends on too many things (how many coldcallers are there, where did the raise come from). You have you use your best judgement when coldcalling raises.

Hope this helps.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Outside of the Axs being played in EP, this looks somewhat similar to the loose chart. Could you give me an idea of what limit, VP and BB/100 this is returning you? I understand if you don't. Thanks for taking the time to list it out Brad.

[rafct]

Interesting info. Raising a 97s after 4 limpers is something I am not doing at all.
Is it possible for anybody to explain me why to raise this kind of hand?

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]

Interesting info. Raising a 97s after 4 limpers is something I am not doing at all.
Is it possible for anybody to explain me why to raise this kind of hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

38,719,956 games 465.594 secs 83,162 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 22.0161 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { 9c7c }
Hand 2: 19.5018 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.4887 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 19.4968 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 19.4966 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }

[rafct]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Respondendo a:</font><hr />
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 22.0161 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { 9c7c }
Hand 2: 19.5018 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.4887 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 19.4968 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 19.4966 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }




[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. But against 4 random hands, something like queen ten offsuit would have even a bigger equity, and we are not raising that hand after 4 limpers.And the opponents will play better stuff than random..

[Shillx]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

10,057,403 games 252.797 secs 39,784 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 16.6083 % [ 00.15 00.01 ] { QTo }
Hand 2: 17.3873 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 17.2211 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 17.2398 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 5: 17.2142 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 6: 14.3292 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { random }


---

2,906,072 games 60.515 secs 48,022 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 17.0875 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { 97s }
Hand 2: 17.3921 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 17.2770 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 17.2174 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 5: 17.2702 % [ 00.16 00.01 ] { TT-22, AQs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 6: 13.7557 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { random }

Brad

[cowboyzfan]

thanks for posting your chart. I was wondering if you (or other experts) could explain why you deviate from SSH guidelines. For example, you raise hands such as 97s from late position with several limpers. Could you explain why this is better than just calling?

Also, how would these recommendations change if you were playing at a very loose and very passive table? I would guess that the raises would be even better except in the case that you are raising to steal the blinds etc. Is that correct?

I am not challenging your recommendations, i just want to learn the theory behind them. Also, you raise hands such as AJ and KQ in EP. What game conditions would this no longer be a good idea? I am assuming you are advising this even in the "tighter" games. Is this just a matter of punishing opponents consistently starting with inferior hands?

Also, for anyone, if you are playing at a very loose, very passive table, would you ever play A9o multi way? I don't think A9o is ever mentioned in SSH but ATo is recommended from MP even in the "tight chart"

thanks