Why Raise when they will call anyway.

[Mikey]

To be honest with you I'm starting to play much more shorthanded poker and I like it so much more than a full ring game. Now I understand when all these pros are saying to play shorthanded rather than full ring game because it is so much more profitable, but still the SWINGS can be big, either way.

The reason for the post is this. Let's say you are on the button with a raising hand, not a premium hand but a hand like J8s or 89s or A6o or A3o, why should you raise if the percentage of SB or BB calling is around 80% or more. I think you are better off calling and letting them knuckle and both of you seeing the flop. Why should you always be the one stealing when stealing doesn't even work. I've found that it is much more profitable to limp and then to outplay someone on the flop and beyond rather than always RAISE RAISE RAISE before the flop if most of the time they are going to call you anyway. I'm talking of a shorthanded game of 3 to 4 people in the entire game.

What do you think?

[Dynasty]

If they're going to call with anything, then just limping with J8s and T9s is best. However, you still want to be raising with your better hands including AA-88 and two big cards probably down to KT.

[Jimbo]

Position with control! Ok, one reason but it has enough value for two reasons! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Jimbo

[Clarkmeister]

If the SB always folds and the BB defends 80% of the time, you are close to showing an immediate profit. Add to the fact that you will only be raising with your best 50% while they are defending with their best 80%, and you are in a great situation.

[Mikey]

what I am talking about is this.....Let's say you are the button and you raise, the combined chance of both the SB folding and BB folding is near 20% or even lower, basically put your chance of stealing is very very slim.
An overratted hand that I think that most raise with in this position is A2 through A6.
Legimate raising hands would be KJ, KT, K9, QJ, QT, Q9, Q8s
JT, J9, and mainly others that are high rank cards which are 1 or 2 gappers are good raising hands.

Basically in this game you don't want to be playing drawing hands unless you flop strongly. You basically want to flop to the hand and continue, MAKE them draw, they are the ones that are wrong and are costing themselves.

[Clarkmeister]

Give me A2 over KJ any day of the week in that spot. I don't think its that close either.

[JTG51]

I'll take A2 every hand and you can have Q9. We'll play all night if you want. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

J8s, 98s, and A3 are not worth a raise in this spot if the blinds defend with any regularity. You are better off limping or, even better, throwing these hands away. Re-read the short-handed section in HPFAP regarding exactly these sorts of hands when you're on the button. Remember that you're not getting the drawing odds, so the suited value is minimal here.

You hit it on the head with your comments about A-baby hands. It's true that Ax will win in cases where you're head-up and no one pairs - and this happens often enough to be significant. But where the blinds are loose and there is a chance that BOTH will defend, you are far better off with KJ or another hand with two big cards. You have twice the chance of hitting a strong top pair, plus a King may be high card anyway versus the blinds.

I think Clarkmeister and those who agree with him about Ax should re-read the short-handed section of HPFAP that I talked about in my earlier post.

[Dynasty]

you're not getting the drawing odds, so the suited value is minimal here.

You're completely overlooking that flopping middle pair with 98s will probably give you the best hand.

[Clarkmeister]

So you are telling me I can take the flop for 2 bets with Axo and the button against 2 random hands from blinds who call all the time? Where do I find this juicy game?

p. 197 of HPFAP, from the short-handed section: "When the players in the blinds are very loose or at least highly apt to defend, there are hands that you should just call with. You use this approach when you really don't like your hand that much ... Three ideal hands to do this with are small pairs such as deuces, small suited connectors, or a hand like A6o. Notice that most people will raise with these. But if you are in a game where both blinds are calling a very high percentage of the time, you should just call. Otherwise you run into problems. Suppose you raise with A6o and get two calls. Unless the flop contains an ace your hand is usually not worth much, and you will flop an ace only about one time in five. Though you will also flop a six about one time in five, it might not win, and ace high will win less often still. Thus you probably don't want to commit too much money to the pot."

He has much more to say, but I'm trying to be brief here. At any rate, be careful with your estimations of Ace baby. It's not the money-winner you think it is. If you're playing Paradise, you might try tracking your results with Pokerstat. I'd be curious to see if you do as well with Ax as dealer vs. loose blinds as you think you do.

Sure. I'm just saying don't overrate suited vs. non-suited here, especially with medium cards like these. You get a little extra with 98s vs. 98, but not that much. At any rate I think you're often better off just calling rather than raising with something like 98s versus loose blinds, which is what this discussion is about. See page 198 of short-handed section in HPFAP, i.e. "One hand that might be okay to call with ([in the cutoff] is something like 98s. It is probably worth playing cheaply against the two blinds and maybe the button, but isn't worth raising with when there is no chance to steal the pot." I think this comment applies to opening with 98s as dealer too, not just in the cutoff.

[Clarkmeister]

John,

I agree completely regarding the hands like 89s. However A6o is simply too much hand to not raise it with. I am perfectly content to chalk this one as another spot where I disagree with Sklansky's preflop standards, which are in general too tight.

Part of the problem is that David himself admits that his writing is purposely cautious because he doesn't want to get marginal players (much of his audience) into trouble. I think this is an example where the correct play is to raise. David also recommends folding AJo UTG which I also disagree with.

I simply think that you have too much going for you in this situation. You likely have the best hand at the moment. You have showdown value. If we just "deal em out" my hand will win more than its fair share. And maybe most importantly, I have position. I think that these are all good reasons to get more money in the pot, and charge their J4o an extra sb to miss the flop.

I hope this isn't coming off as agumentative, I just honestly disagree with you here.

[John Biggs]

[Clarkmeister]

I've heard of Pokerstat, but don't own it. I never considered it since honestly, I only play like an hour a day on the g/f's account to keep her solvent while she continues to learn.

I would be willing to consider it, however. It is likely to help her, as well as give us some info about A6o on the button /forums/images/icons/wink.gif .

I assume its some 3rd party software that I purchase, or is it something offered by Paradise?

[John Biggs]

[Dynasty]

See page 198 of short-handed section in HPFAP

The more short-handed I get to play in my Mirage 20-40 game, the more I realize the 15 pages of HEPFAP's short-handed section is ridiculously inadequate.

[John Biggs]

20/40 - well, I'm impressed. Sometime you should post a summary of what you've learned & how it differs, if you care to give away that much of your strategy (and you may well not). The shorthanded section in HPFAP is indeed very sketchy, but a good starting point in my opinion if read carefully to overcome poor organization of material. For the 3-6 and 5-10 five-way games I play on Paradise, I have compiled a fairly lengthy set of notes to myself which I keep improving on. But these notes don't contradict Sklansky/Malmuth so much as address additional variables and strategies. For example in terms of hand selection alone I don't approach a relatively passive table (say, 40 percent open-limpers, which you occasionally run into at low limit) the same way I approach a more typically aggressive table. This is an obvious point, but personally I had to think about it awhile in terms of how I would play the more passive situation to maximize it. S/M don't cover this sort of thing, nor can you use ring-game standards to make your adjustments.

But I still wouldn't be dismissive of HPFAP's short-handed discussion. It and Brier/Ciaffione are two decent sources for anyone just starting out.