Continuing Quest for River Excellence [Archive]

JDErickson

02-23-2005, 11:57 AM

Loose Passive table. MP3 was quite loose passive. No read on BB as he has flown under the radar so far.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (9.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.16 BB

Comments on river play? Ck behind, Call the raise? Fold to the raise?

Fat Nicky

02-23-2005, 12:03 PM

checking behind sucks. getting raised sucks too. I think I pay this off w/o a read.

I wouldn't disagree if someone said to fold though. the villain saw you raise the flop, bet the turn, and then bet the river again, i can't see how he could raise the river without a K or JJ.

DMBFan23

02-23-2005, 12:06 PM

anyone just call the flop?

QTip

02-23-2005, 12:06 PM

This really reeks of a party "tourist" flopping 3 kings...they just love to do this. I probably would have c/f the river.

spydog

02-23-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
anyone just call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the intention of doing what? Calling down? Raising the turn? Or folding cheaply if someone raises?

Fat Nicky

02-23-2005, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I probably would have c/f the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope c/f doesn't mean check/fold.

krishanleong

02-23-2005, 12:13 PM

folding this river blows. Call the raise.

Krishan

QTip

02-23-2005, 12:16 PM

Yeah...that's what I meant. Obviously, this isn't a popular choice.

Honestly, I'm really having a hard time finding a happy medium between my maniacal stats and discretion on the turn and river.

chief444

02-23-2005, 12:17 PM

So nobody's at all concerned that BB called 2 cold on the flop and turn with a KK33 board and rainbow flop? I would be.

Fat Nicky

02-23-2005, 12:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah...that's what I meant. Obviously, this isn't a popular choice.

Honestly, I'm really having a hard time finding a happy medium between my maniacal stats and discretion on the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

just looking over the hand, check/folding is impossible as you have position on the BB.

Fat Nicky

02-23-2005, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So nobody's at all concerned that BB called 2 cold on the flop and turn with a KK33 board and rainbow flop? I would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

this does set off alarms. So, do we still be when checked to or do we check behind at the river and show our hand down.

QTip

02-23-2005, 12:21 PM

have it backwards...fold to a bet and check it through.

krishanleong

02-23-2005, 12:22 PM

Folding to a bet is also bad.

Krishan

DMBFan23

02-23-2005, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone just call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the intention of doing what? Calling down? Raising the turn? Or folding cheaply if someone raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure. I know that's what I'd do if it were heads up with the bettor and I, so I'm wondering how much we need to force out the other players. it seems like we're (to use a cliche) way ahead or way behind - the hand with the greatest number of outs against us would be Ax.

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 12:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Loose Passive table. MP3 was quite loose passive. No read on BB as he has flown under the radar so far.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (9.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.16 BB

Comments on river play? Ck behind, Call the raise? Fold to the raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

BB clearly has a K IMO, especially after check/cold-calling on the flop. I think you need to check behind on the turn here, as you are either way ahead or way behind. If BB comes to life and leads the river, you can reevaluate.

Call the river and then swear.

QTip

02-23-2005, 12:45 PM

...you're probably right..he could be bluffing more than 8% of the time.

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
anyone just call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I want to (a) get a cheap showdown if I so choose and (b) see how BB reacts to my raise.

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So nobody's at all concerned that BB called 2 cold on the flop and turn with a KK33 board and rainbow flop? I would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

this does set off alarms. So, do we still be when checked to or do we check behind at the river and show our hand down.

[/ QUOTE ]

The move here is to check behind on the TURN.

Fat Nicky

02-23-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The move here is to check behind on the TURN.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see checking behind on the turn as being so clear cut. It isn't bad, but I don't see a big difference between checking behind the turn and calling a river bet, and betting the turn and checking behind the river. I actually like a turn bet better because I can lay down my hand easier on the turn than on the river.

rmarotti

02-23-2005, 01:12 PM

n/m

Rich resolves to read the entire thread before asking silly questions. . .

Sarge85

02-23-2005, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Loose Passive table.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.



[/ QUOTE ]

Totally drawless board in which the BB calls two cold.

I'm not sure I'm keen on throwing much more money at this pot.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

chief444

02-23-2005, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this does set off alarms. So, do we still be when checked to or do we check behind at the river and show our hand down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I just reread the action and for some reason I thought JD raised the turn also (which would have been bad) but as it is I definitely bet the turn. I fold to a check/raise and probably check behind on the river, although it's closer than I thought. I don't know about calling the river raise though. I know it's a big pot but given your aggression I find it hard to believe someone would bluff raise this river or even see this river with a worse hand.

Chris Daddy Cool

02-23-2005, 01:31 PM

hi guys,

flop and turn are good. i would bet this river though I am a little concerned about bb's hand. given that bb called two bets cold on the flop on this drawless board means that he a) has a king or b) has a pocketpair.

i'd be more willing to bet this river because its hard to imagine him waiting all the way till the river to make his move when most typical players love the turn checkraise. and also there are some passives that might even just call you down with a K afraid of their kicker so thats a nice little bonus.

as far as calling the river c/r. i think its pretty close, but HU its hard to fold in this spot, so i call. if this river were three handed i would fold to a c/r though.

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The move here is to check behind on the TURN.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see checking behind on the turn as being so clear cut. It isn't bad, but I don't see a big difference between checking behind the turn and calling a river bet, and betting the turn and checking behind the river. I actually like a turn bet better because I can lay down my hand easier on the turn than on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like CDC said, BB either has a K or a pp. He is either WAY ahead of you or way behind you. He WILL bet his K on the river if you check behind, but also his PP. I want to show this down, and I think checking behind on the turn is the way to do it cheaply.

Fat Nicky

02-23-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ike CDC said, BB either has a K or a pp. He is either WAY ahead of you or way behind you. He WILL bet his K on the river if you check behind, but also his PP. I want to show this down, and I think checking behind on the turn is the way to do it cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is willing to put in more bets w/ a smaller PP, why would we check the turn???

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ike CDC said, BB either has a K or a pp. He is either WAY ahead of you or way behind you. He WILL bet his K on the river if you check behind, but also his PP. I want to show this down, and I think checking behind on the turn is the way to do it cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain is willing to put in more bets w/ a smaller PP, why would we check the turn???

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz we want to show this down, and a c/r would really SUCK.

joker122

02-23-2005, 02:31 PM

what is the purpose of the flop raise? not criticizing, just curious. sorry if it's already been asked.

Redeye

02-23-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
flop and turn are good. i would bet this river though I am a little concerned about bb's hand. given

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why the flop raise is good? I'm just having a little trouble understanding what we are trying to protect our hand from here. At best someone might have a 3 outer against us and I think we're often way ahead/way behind here.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
as far as calling the river c/r. i think its pretty close, but HU its hard to fold in this spot, so i call. if this river were three handed i would fold to a c/r though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris,

Isn't this one of those situations where, if you can't fold to a raise, you should c/behind? Also, how bad do you think checking behind is?

I don't mind the river bet, but I really hate calling that raise given the description of BB as someone who was "under the radar". You would have likely already noticed anyone aggressive enough to raise here. Also, I think it's worth asking if Hero has folded to any river bets lately? If not, I really don't think villain's raise here is a bluff even 1 in 13 times, given the way the hand played. Granted, it's close, but I don't like it.

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop and turn are good. i would bet this river though I am a little concerned about bb's hand. given

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why the flop raise is good? I'm just having a little trouble understanding what we are trying to protect our hand from here. At best someone might have a 3 outer against us and I think we're often way ahead/way behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do if you just call and you get bet into again?

This is not necessarily a protection raise. We likely have the best hand, so the raise is for value. The raise also will make playing the expensive streets easier. We have shown strength. If someone plays back at us later, we can confidently lay the hand down.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why the flop raise is good? I'm just having a little trouble understanding what we are trying to protect our hand from here. At best someone might have a 3 outer against us and I think we're often way ahead/way behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I'm not crazy about the flop raise either. I think there's alot to be said for waiting till the river to raise. Of course, then you must decide if you want to fold to a 3-bet, but you probably given a normal read.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not necessarily a protection raise. We likely have the best hand, so the raise is for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's not too much value in making worse hands lay down, which is a likely effect of this raise.

[ QUOTE ]
The raise also will make playing the expensive streets easier. We have shown strength. If someone plays back at us later, we can confidently lay the hand down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is read-dependent. To an observant oppo, your raise here says that you do not have a K. It reeks of a good 2nd best hand. This gives an aggressive oppo a good bluffing opportunity -- eg, a turn c/r.

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This gives an aggressive oppo a good bluffing opportunity -- eg, a turn c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but how manyplayers will make this move at 3/6? I don't know either, which is why I like checking behind on the turn and then calling/betting the river if checked to.

chief444

02-23-2005, 03:11 PM

I don't think calling down would be a bad option at all. The only hands I would want to fold here are Axs with a backdoor flush draw. And even that isn't quite getting correct odds.

As gaming mouse pointed out whether to raise the river or just call then becomes a close decision. I would probably raise and fold to a 3-bet.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but how manyplayers will make this move at 3/6?

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly not the majority, but it wouldn't be too rare either. I have been seeing tons and tons of turn c/r bluffs lately at 3/6.

Redeye

02-23-2005, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As gaming mouse pointed out whether to raise the river or just call then becomes a close decision. I would probably raise and fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line a lot more, personally. I'd like to hear someone give arguments against it. I'd call down and raise the river and fold to a 3-bet, I think that gets the max out of a smaller PP since its hard for people to fold the river for one more bet thinking you might be taking a shot.

PokerBob, since I didn't reply directly to you, this line of raising the river I think would maximize someone with a worse PP hand. Raising the flop runs the risk of getting a worse hand to fold, or getting the flop better to fold a pure bluff which isn't very good. If he has a smaller pair like TT or something, he'll bet the whole way thinking he's good and will probably call our raise thinking were taking a shot at him on the river.

I think the only real difficulty is what happens if someone acting after us smooth calls the flop and raises the turn? I suppose with a good read of the player being super-passive we could dump our hand, but this would be rare.

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 03:28 PM

PokerBob

02-23-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As gaming mouse pointed out whether to raise the river or just call then becomes a close decision. I would probably raise and fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line a lot more, personally. I'd like to hear someone give arguments against it. I'd call down and raise the river and fold to a 3-bet, I think that gets the max out of a smaller PP since its hard for people to fold the river for one more bet thinking you might be taking a shot.

PokerBob, since I didn't reply directly to you, this line of raising the river I think would maximize someone with a worse PP hand. Raising the flop runs the risk of getting a worse hand to fold, or getting the flop better to fold a pure bluff which isn't very good. If he has a smaller pair like TT or something, he'll bet the whole way thinking he's good and will probably call our raise thinking were taking a shot at him on the river.

I think the only real difficulty is what happens if someone acting after us smooth calls the flop and raises the turn? I suppose with a good read of the player being super-passive we could dump our hand, but this would be rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we talking about 3-betting the river here, and THEN folding to a cap? If so, I HATE that line, but mostly because I KNOW I won't be able to get away from the call.

Sarge85

02-23-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what is the purpose of the flop raise? not criticizing, just curious. sorry if it's already been asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm suprised by why so many people are questioning the flop raise. - It was absolutely correct.
<ul type="square">
It puts UTG (i think that's who bet the flop) to a test is he fast playing a King, or playing a three, or just representing a King. - (notice he folded to a turn bet).

It vastly narrows down the possible holdings of the BB. (the drawless board is a huge indicator - all the more reason to define your hand, and the others)

It's cheaper to do it now that the turn.(and with few people in it makes more sense to do now)

It adds value for those times that in point one, we are in fact still ahead.

[/list]

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

DMBFan23

02-23-2005, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is the purpose of the flop raise? not criticizing, just curious. sorry if it's already been asked.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm suprised by why so many people are questioning the flop raise. - It was absolutely correct.
<ul type="square">

It puts UTG (it think that's who bet the flop) to a test is he fast playing a King, or playing a three, or just representing a King. - (notice he folded to a turn bet).

It vastly narrows down the possible holdings of the BB. (the drawless board is a huge indicator - all the more reason to define your hand, and the others)

It's cheaper to do it now that the turn.(and with few people in it makes more sense to do now)

It adds value for those times that in point one, we are in fact still ahead.

[/list]

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
not sure. I know that's what I'd do if it were heads up with the bettor and I, so I'm wondering how much we need to force out the other players. it seems like we're (to use a cliche) way ahead or way behind - the hand with the greatest number of outs against us would be Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been thinking about this, and I think multiway this is right. we will force out worse hands, but worse hands aren't as likely to bet the turn again (or call a bet) when it's multiway, as the bettor should be more inclined to give us credit for a decent hand when we call here (us knowing he would be less likely bet into a multiway pot with nothing should allow him to peg us for a DECENT hand when we call)

Heads up, I think there's more of a chance of
1) being bluff raised
2) him continuing to bet a worse hand if we flat call.

In this protected pot, I think raising the flop is good. in addition, if we don't raise now we may get blown off the hand if the turn is a J or something and the bettor bets and the player in between raises something like AJ.

now I just have to go off and think about whether to give the free turn card.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It puts UTG (i think that's who bet the flop) to a test is he fast playing a King, or playing a three, or just representing a King. - (notice he folded to a turn bet).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are so keen on putting him to a test? The object of the game is to win the most money, not figure out what the other guy's hand is the fastest.

[ QUOTE ]
It vastly narrows down the possible holdings of the BB. (the drawless board is a huge indicator - all the more reason to define your hand, and the others)

[/ QUOTE ]

Drawless is the key word here. The best reason for the raise is to push BB off draws, but here you have none. You don't mind anyone chasing you with a 3-outer. In fact, you prefer it.

[ QUOTE ]
It's cheaper to do it now that the turn.(and with few people in it makes more sense to do now)

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are the only choices raise now or raise the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
It adds value for those times that in point one, we are in fact still ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

It decreases value. Even fish might lay down on the turn UI if they have only a three. And a bluffer will lay down for sure. The only hand you gain more against is a lower pocket pair. But if you call now and raise the river, you gain even more against that hand.

gm

btspider

02-23-2005, 04:06 PM

HU, this would be a call, bet if checked to situation. on a rainbow flop, i'm not sure we want to fold 2-3 outers unless we can confidently fold if played back at.

if we have the best hand, we are pretty far ahead of everything but A3 perhaps. we don't mind donations from weaker hands.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In this protected pot, I think raising the flop is good. in addition, if we don't raise now we may get blown off the hand if the turn is a J or something and the bettor bets and the player in between raises something like AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very few players are raising the turn in this spot with a hand that you beat. I really don't think this is a significant concern.

DMBFan23

02-23-2005, 04:34 PM

yeah, it's a really small concern. But, most of the reasons to keep MP2 betting HU aren't as applicable here - I think he's betting fewer hands we beat on the turn if he gets flop calls (versus those worse hands he'd bet again if we were HU, which is most of them).

if he's betting something like A9s here, we might actually get more out of him by raising, if he's going to give up on the turn.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if he's betting something like A9s here, we might actually get more out of him by raising, if he's going to give up on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true, and is probably the best reason for the raise i've heard so far. still, though, it does not make up for the money you lose against players that will follow thru on their bluffs. also, keep in mind that if BB is going to chase a 3-outer too, then your raises loses a SB from him.

DMBFan23

02-23-2005, 04:45 PM

I think one of the things that is making me vacillate about this is I can't decide what a calling of two cold means. it's kind of a conundrum. if the players are too good, then a call of two cold could be a float attempt or some trickiness with TT. if the players are too bad, the call of two cold could mean anything. but if the players are just average, and calling two cold means we're in bad shape, then I like raising for information. However, if no one will take the passive flop action as a green light to get jiggy with a worse hand then mine, or semibluff if they pick up a draw, then I see definite merits to calling. I'm also not sure what hands players will call on this flop for one bet but not two.

Cool thread. hopefully we'll get more flop discussion.

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think one of the things that is making me vacillate about this is I can't decide what a calling of two cold means. it's kind of a conundrum. if the players are too good, then a call of two cold could be a float attempt or some trickiness with TT. if the players are too bad, the call of two cold could mean anything. but if the players are just average, and calling two cold means we're in bad shape, then I like raising for information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you don't do it for information, you do it cause it saves you money when you're behind. However, I think calling of 2 cold here is pretty reliably a K, except against VERY fishy or VERY tricky players. But the thing is.... what does knowing that get you, unless you are willing to fold the turn UI? I mean, I don't know if its THAT reliable. So in reality, this information is not saving you money at all. But I'm convinced that the raise loses you money when ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
no one will take the passive flop action as a green light to get jiggy with a worse hand then mine, or semibluff if they pick up a draw, then I see definite merits to calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now here is another good point. Not raising does make the hand harder to play. And if you are against oppos capable of the moves you describe, you are going to have to call down after a t/raise. But then again, those same oppos might just as easily get tricky after your flop raise, because that screams "I don't have a K" too. So again, does it really make the hand easier to play?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also not sure what hands players will call on this flop for one bet but not two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any A hand.

Sarge85

02-23-2005, 05:59 PM

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also not sure what hands players will call on this flop for one bet but not two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any A hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's an overestimate that all pocket pairs call for two bets also.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

bobbyi

02-23-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It puts UTG (i think that's who bet the flop) to a test is he fast playing a King, or playing a three, or just representing a King. - (notice he folded to a turn bet).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is bad. We don't want him to fold to a turn bet. Finding out what hand your opponent has by creating a situation where they won't pay you off with anything you beat is not automatically profitable even though it gives you information.

bobbyi

02-23-2005, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but how manyplayers will make this move at 3/6?

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly not the majority, but it wouldn't be too rare either. I have been seeing tons and tons of turn c/r bluffs lately at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]
What hand do you possible think he has that would be bluffing here? Did he call on the flop with 9T with the intention of calling all the way and trying to buy the pot with a river check-raise? Did he call with 77 and suddenly he's decided that he doesn't like it anymore and he can push us off a bigger pocket pair? I'm sure you've seen people c/r bluff. We all have. But that is done on a desparate busted draw. I don't understand what hand you are putting him on with this flop that suddenly got depsparate to buy the pot on the river.

sweetjazz

02-23-2005, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So nobody's at all concerned that BB called 2 cold on the flop and turn with a KK33 board and rainbow flop? I would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am concerned, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see a lower pocket pair or just ace high, depending how juicy the game is.

I also wouldn't be surprised if BB's raise on the river is with pocket jacks.

What makes this hand hard (for me at least) is assessing the degree to which the threat that BB has been sandbagging a big hand with the possibility that the BB is paying us a lot of money drawing real slim.

The river play is a bit dicey, because I don't feel great about folding to BBs raise, though I doubt he's bluffing or overplaying AJ. (Maybe folding is right, but I don't feel good about it.) I also don't feel great about checking through, because he'll pay off with a lot of smaller pocket pairs, and maybe even just ace high. Going over the range of likely hands, I think checking behind is the right thing to do on the river, but it's probably close.

Redeye

02-23-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about 3-betting the river here, and THEN folding to a cap? If so, I HATE that line, but mostly because I KNOW I won't be able to get away from the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm assuming we have no idea BB will cold call here. I think this discussion would've worked better if the action had stopped at hero's decision on the flop. Now that people see BB cold calls, it taints peoples decision a bit because they want to know he's holding a K on the flop. Anyways, I was advocating calling UTG+2's bet and call to the river if he keeps betting, raise the river and fold if he 3-bets.

Redeye

02-23-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm suprised by why so many people are questioning the flop raise. - It was absolutely correct.

It puts UTG (i think that's who bet the flop) to a test is he fast playing a King, or playing a three, or just representing a King. - (notice he folded to a turn bet).

It vastly narrows down the possible holdings of the BB. (the drawless board is a huge indicator - all the more reason to define your hand, and the others)

It's cheaper to do it now that the turn.(and with few people in it makes more sense to do now)

It adds value for those times that in point one, we are in fact still ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all great, but are you going to act on this information? Also, what if BB never cold called and you get UTG+2 to fold a small pair that he would've played until the river? What if your raise get BB to fold a 2 or 3 outer he would've called with until the river?

The point is, you're going to put in 2 SBs on the flop, 1 BB on the turn, and 1 BB(if you don't call that river raise) on the river. Basically putting in 3BB when behind, but if BB folds a hand he'd call with, your losing money, if UTG+2 folds when he is pushing something like 44-TT, you lose money.

Let's assume you don't know BB was going to cold call, which I agree indicates a strong possibility he has a K. (Although I also think fishy and sometimes more solid players will call down with mid PP thinking you're trying to push them off a hand). Now, if you let UTG+2 bet the whole way and you raise the river, your putting in an extra SB, but I think you're probably winning more when you are actually ahead. Many people have already suggested not folding to BB's river raise which means you might've put in 4BB. I don't think anyone will bluff 3-bet the river agaisnt you, so this line might actually save you a SB.

Sarge85

02-23-2005, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This is all great, but are you going to act on this information? Also, what if BB never cold called and you get UTG+2 to fold a small pair that he would've played until the river? What if your raise get BB to fold a 2 or 3 outer he would've called with until the river?

The point is, you're going to put in 2 SBs on the flop, 1 BB on the turn, and 1 BB(if you don't call that river raise) on the river. Basically putting in 3BB when behind, but if BB folds a hand he'd call with, your losing money, if UTG+2 folds when he is pushing something like 44-TT, you lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I'm understanding you correctly -

If the flop came K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

You are adovcating not raising the flop?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Redeye

02-23-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So if I'm understanding you correctly -

If the flop came K 2 7

You are adovcating not raising the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise preflop, the flop comes as you say, and I get someone betting into me with two players to act after me? I'm not sure to be honest. There are a lot more combinations of hands that have significant outs against you, A7,A2,78,79,23, ect that these clowns might have, therefore a raise will have more benefit in protecting our hand. However, the likelyhood that we are beat by a K is also that much greater on a board like that. Remember, in the previous hand you have no idea that BB is going to cold call, therefore its unclear weather we're ahead or behind. Many people see paired boards and automatically think you don't have a K and take a shot at you with a smaller pair, or actually think their pair is good. With a board like K27r, I think this player is betting a K a much larger % of the time. If the player is fairly passive, its probably possible to lay it down at some point in the hand.

I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm not convinced a flop raise is right. (In either circumstance) Its an interesting discussion though

JDErickson

02-23-2005, 08:23 PM

First of all thanx everyone for a great thread. Here are my thoughts.

I raised the flop to try and get rid of any draws. Now after reading all the responses I can see that I really didn't want to fold any hands that may have called with the drawless board. Maybe Ax but do I really mind someone drawing to 3 outs.

I'm still not sure about the turn and river. I see benefits to checking through the turn and calling the inevitable river bet, I also see benefit in betting the turn and checking behind on the river. I don't think you can not call on the river though. I don't think a fold anywhere would be correct.

Opponent did have AKo

Jim

bilbo-san

02-23-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not necessarily a protection raise. We likely have the best hand, so the raise is for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's not too much value in making worse hands lay down, which is a likely effect of this raise.

[ QUOTE ]
The raise also will make playing the expensive streets easier. We have shown strength. If someone plays back at us later, we can confidently lay the hand down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is read-dependent. To an observant oppo, your raise here says that you do not have a K. It reeks of a good 2nd best hand. This gives an aggressive oppo a good bluffing opportunity -- eg, a turn c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your average opponent, even the observant ones, thinks this much, I think you are playing at the wrong tables /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Imho even the "better" (i.e., non 2+2) players on Party are not nearly that observant.

(None of which is meant to agree/disagree with whether or not raising is correct, I'm just sayin' /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

gaming_mouse

02-23-2005, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What hand do you possible think he has that would be bluffing here? Did he call on the flop with 9T with the intention of calling all the way and trying to buy the pot with a river check-raise? Did he call with 77 and suddenly he's decided that he doesn't like it anymore and he can push us off a bigger pocket pair? I'm sure you've seen people c/r bluff. We all have. But that is done on a desparate busted draw. I don't understand what hand you are putting him on with this flop that suddenly got depsparate to buy the pot on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

bobby,

i don't understrand these comments. please re-read my post. i do not think that this oppo was bluffing. that discussion came up as a theoretical consideration.

bobbyi

02-23-2005, 09:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What hand do you possible think he has that would be bluffing here? Did he call on the flop with 9T with the intention of calling all the way and trying to buy the pot with a river check-raise? Did he call with 77 and suddenly he's decided that he doesn't like it anymore and he can push us off a bigger pocket pair? I'm sure you've seen people c/r bluff. We all have. But that is done on a desparate busted draw. I don't understand what hand you are putting him on with this flop that suddenly got depsparate to buy the pot on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

bobby,

i don't understrand these comments. please re-read my post. i do not think that this oppo was bluffing. that discussion came up as a theoretical consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I misunderstood and thought we were talking about the river check-raise and you were saying that it could be a bluff because opponents at this level are capable of check-raise bluffing. Yes, I see now that you were discussing the turn.

meanjean

02-24-2005, 10:15 AM

just a thought here....but on the river, hero has either won or lost...If our hero has lost then why would he bet and risk being raised? If our hero has won then most likely the villian will fold to a bet(or at least a certain percentage of time). Wouldn't the correct play be to check the river and allow the villian to bluff with nothing or a weaker pp, making an extra bet if ahead while only losing a single bet if behind.

my 2 cents

Entity

02-24-2005, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is all great, but are you going to act on this information? Also, what if BB never cold called and you get UTG+2 to fold a small pair that he would've played until the river? What if your raise get BB to fold a 2 or 3 outer he would've called with until the river?

The point is, you're going to put in 2 SBs on the flop, 1 BB on the turn, and 1 BB(if you don't call that river raise) on the river. Basically putting in 3BB when behind, but if BB folds a hand he'd call with, your losing money, if UTG+2 folds when he is pushing something like 44-TT, you lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I'm understanding you correctly -

If the flop came K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

You are adovcating not raising the flop?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a bit of a different situation, as there can be multiple 5-out draws that can hurt you there. On a 33K board or a KK3 board, however, you're much more likely to be in a way-ahead way-behind situation, and I don't see much utility in raising there.

Rob

Sarge85

02-24-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's a bit of a different situation, as there can be multiple 5-out draws that can hurt you there. On a 33K board or a KK3 board, however, you're much more likely to be in a way-ahead way-behind situation, and I don't see much utility in raising there.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the first time I've seen this phrase. Problem is I don't know where to read up more on this concept. Any links/books/etc would be helpful. Obviously I'm missing something here - in my head raising still seems the best play because *I* feel I can play better past the flop.

Maybe I'm diluting myself --

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

JDErickson

02-24-2005, 02:45 PM

You know one problem I have with the Way Ahead Way Behind, chk it down line is reconciling this with my attempt to stay agressive. I hate calling it down as it seems so weak.

ErrantNight

02-24-2005, 03:03 PM

way ahead way behind also works much better headsup...

PokerBob

02-24-2005, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know one problem I have with the Way Ahead Way Behind, chk it down line is reconciling this with my attempt to stay agressive. I hate calling it down as it seems so weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an excellent point that is often overlooked, and still costs me money. I tend (as I assume many others do) to stay aggressive because that is my default mode. We are taught to play aggressively, but there are times when agression is just plain stupid.

I struggle with it. When I check or call, I feel like I am saying, "I am not a man." /images/graemlins/grin.gif

ErrantNight

02-24-2005, 03:15 PM

aggressiveness is to cocksize
as
passiveness is to being lil sally

Entity

02-24-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
way ahead way behind also works much better headsup...

[/ QUOTE ]

You also have to look at the potential hands out there, and figure out how much not playing aggressively could cost us here. In a pot where if you have the best hand, your hand likely to stay best (on a KK3 board), the aggression isn't really necessary, as if you have the best hand here (two pair), the most outs someone can have against you is 5 -- with A3. Every other hand is drawing to two outs at best.

This changes as the board is twotoned, or has straight possibilities, or doesn't have a community pair -- because then many hands can have 5+ outs against you.

This is why I'm less inclined to think a raise is "necessary" on this board. If you think your raise has value, as players will call you down with much worse hands, then a raise could probably be justified.

Rob