Jamming the pot with a draw on the turn.

[seahawktd]

I understand the advantage of jamming the pot on the flop with a strong draw. But any thoughts of jamming on the turn? I could see if you had a monster draw of AKs with an ace on the board with 2 of the same suit, but other than that, I can't see it being a long-term winner considering it's a 4-1 dog to hit on the river. Any other opinions on this?

[Evan]

Sometimes it will gain you bluffing equity on the river.

Note the word I bolded.

[sthief09]

you might have the best hand, and you have 2 outs to trips, top kicker and 3 outs to top two pair

[bernie]

Jamming for value on the turn is fun. I try and do it as long as I think Im even money or better. Unless I think there's some bluff value that someone may fold a better hand or something. But that's a little different.

But as far as for value, say your a 4-1 dog. (flush draw) You have 7 opponents in. Not seeing or doing any real reads on them, put some blinders on for a moment, you are making money on each bet that goes in the pot. Add reads, subtract the possible tainted outs, then re asses your odds for your draw. Any time, after those factors the # of opponents is higher than your odds, ([7]opp vs. [4]-1 ex. above) you make money on your jam and are a longterm winner in the situation.

It doesn't come up that often, but when it does, it's real fun. Especially when you jam the hell out of the turn, then fold the river when you miss. You really get an earful and unbelievable looks then.

It's the same concept as jamming on the flop, except your odds are longer so your draw has to be much better, or more players in.

b

[seahawktd]

[ QUOTE ]
Jamming for value on the turn is fun. I try and do it as long as I think Im even money or better. Unless I think there's some bluff value that someone may fold a better hand or something. But that's a little different.

But as far as for value, say your a 4-1 dog. (flush draw) You have 7 opponents in. Not seeing or doing any real reads on them, put some blinders on for a moment, you are making money on each bet that goes in the pot. Add reads, subtract the possible tainted outs, then re asses your odds for your draw. Any time, after those factors the # of opponents is higher than your odds, ([7]opp vs. [4]-1 ex. above) you make money on your jam and are a longterm winner in the situation.

It doesn't come up that often, but when it does, it's real fun. Especially when you jam the hell out of the turn, then fold the river when you miss. You really get an earful and unbelievable looks then.

It's the same concept as jamming on the flop, except your odds are longer so your draw has to be much better, or more players in.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, I can see that happening in certain instances, heck if I have Nut flush draw w/ pair I'll jam the heck out of it with at least a few people.

but ive seen folks making some questionable ram and jams heads up and then turning over T3s.

[seahawktd]

oh btw, I'm talking about limit game.. lol

[beachbum]

Well depending on your number of outs and number of opponents sometimes it's worth it. A simple case is when you have a flush draw and OESD with 3 opponents. You're going to make your hand 15/46 times but have 3 other opponents in the pot contributing. The problem is that one of these draws isn't to the nuts so you might not have as many outs as you think. (e.g J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif on a 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif board)

Also, like sthief mentioned make sure you realize your other outs not just focus on those to the nuts. If you think you have 30% pot equity with 3 other opponents at this point, cap the turn every time.

[seahawktd]

[ QUOTE ]
Well depending on your number of outs and number of opponents sometimes it's worth it. A simple case is when you have a flush draw and OESD with 3 opponents. You're going to make your hand 15/46 times but have 3 other opponents in the pot contributing. The problem is that one of these draws isn't to the nuts so you might not have as many outs as you think. (e.g J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif on a 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif board)

Also, like sthief mentioned make sure you realize your other outs not just focus on those to the nuts. If you think you have 30% pot equity with 3 other opponents at this point, cap the turn every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that's a situation that would call for jamming the turn. No disagreement here. but say there are only two people in, or just heads up?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
ive seen folks making some questionable ram and jams heads up and then turning over T3s.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're idiots. [board depending]

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
but say there are only two people in, or just heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

The semi bluff factor comes in more-so at this point. If the opponent(s) are callingstations, then you have to lean more toward if it's jamming for value of the draw. Which is most likely won't be so you are stuck calling trying to hit the river.

b

[beachbum]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, that's a situation that would call for jamming the turn. No disagreement here. but say there are only two people in, or just heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, from a pure mathematical perspective if you have 2 other opponents and your pot equity is >33%, then it makes sense to get everyone to cap the turn.

Also, when there are 1 or 2 opponents, sometimes everyone's on a draw. So if you cap the turn and bet the river, you'll sometimes take the pot without a showdown when everyone's draw is busted (including yours). By capping the turn, you're representing a monster (either monster draw or made hand). The beauty of it is your opponents don't know which.

Here's a hand I played recently that shows this principle, but on the flop:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB


Let's say my opponent had KK, QQ, or JJ. I've got about 44-51% pot equity depending on whether his big pair had a club. However, by capping I'm representing a big Ace. Even though he probably didn't have a big pair (or if he did was incorrect in folding for one more small bet) it illustrates this concept pretty well.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
By capping the turn, you're representing a monster (either monster draw or made hand). The beauty of it is your opponents don't know which.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is the person you're capping/3 betting against. Let's not forget to take their hand in consideration. Generally, when they hit the 3rd or 4th bet on the turn, it's a big hand. Usually at least top, maybe mid set.

b