check my agression

[jba]

After 8k hands I've determined that my agression is way too low and I'm working on it. here's a sample hand which I wouldn't have pushed before but tried here. did I over do it?

edit: just sat down, no reads

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font> (??), <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks (wimp out?? otherwise bet/fold??), CO checks.

River: (5.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font> (??) ...

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

[kapw7]

Well wouldn't it be better if you pushed when you actually had something more decent than the lowest pair? Why do you think that you need to increase your agression? I hope it is not the pokertracker factor.

[jon_keck]

My AF stats don't look so hot either, but I'll offer up this:

Folding more (as opposed to calling) can be just as good for AF as betting and raising more.

[jaxUp]

If your AF is too low, it's not because you're missing out on ets like this. You are probably calling too much, or maybe missing out on some value bets. Post some more hands. That should help.

[NAU_Player]

Being more agressive is good overall, and if you think it needs to be increased, you are probably right.

That being said, playing agressive and playing stupid are two different things. This is an example where you are losing more than your fair share of the time. Pick better spots to boost your AF

Good Luck

[pointcount]

I check call the flop

and check/fold the turn.

[kapw7]

Folding makes you more agressive? That's the pokertracker curse. But more seriously, this a very big subject to answer.

[SampleTOOSMALL]

[ QUOTE ]
After 8k hands

[/ QUOTE ]

***STAMP***

[Buckmulligan]

Expand on the Poker tracker aggression curse; I think it might be hurting me. I am a 2.5 after the flop, is that too low?

[Thigh]

If that's agressive, I don't know if I'll ever be aggressive. First, I don't know if I would have even called pre-flop, without a good read on the table.

Second, you have to know what you're looking for when you do call pre-flop. In this case, I would guess you were looking for either a flush, or flush draw to the nuts, or top/overpair. Neither one came on the flop. Bottom pair with a high kicker I don't think counts much. If you were in this far, I think you should have just checked on the flop.

Somebody raised, then you called. I know you're looking for another A to give you two pair, but let's count the outs. Three As, to complete a two pair hand. It's the nuts right now, but definitely beatable. Two 2s, giving you 5 outs, or 8.2:1 odds. Your first bet on the flop, the pot was laying you at 6.5:1, not enough. Plus, you know CO raised pre-flop, so there's a chance he will again on the flop.

Me, and maybe I'm just not aggressive enough, but I would have folded.

On the river, I would have checked and waited for the other person to act. With a pair of 2s, $5.25 is a good pot. If he bets, then you should be pretty sure he's got something.

So, what was the outcome? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Thigh]

New here, what does ***STAMP*** mean?

[RaiNz]

Take a look at his user name.

[walkdoc]

Actually I think there is probably one less out than you posted. The Ace of spades gives someone a potential nut flush, or just plain flush with 2 spades in their hand.
I've made this mistake a lot lately trying to be too aggressive. If two of the cards were clubs, then your play would have been much more warranted. Then you are protecting your hands. Even better still if there is a straight draw or backdoor straight draw too.
Re-read the section in SSH on protecting your hand. I'm reading again for the 3rd time and just now starting to get it much better. This hand was not for aggression. This was for folding to a raise or a bet. I don't think that even if you had won, that it would have put this hand into the realm of +EV
IMHO.
Walkdoc

[Thigh]

Thx...

[Thigh]

Yup, you're right. I wasn't watching that. So his odds would have been 10.5:1.

[Marquis]

I don't like the pf call. I do like the flop bet though. When he checks the turn through your hand is good, but I'd check-call the river, you might induce a bluff with his overs but he'll fold them if you bet out.

[gvibes]

He posted. He didn't call preflop. But don't post in MP2.

Frankly, I don't know whether I'd check/fold this flop, or bet out. Given that it's only 3-handed, I may take a shot with bottom pair. If I get raised, I only call if I have odds to improve to trips or two pair. If you don't discount the outs at all, you would have odds to call here, but CO could easily be raising a flush draw for a free card here...

I probably check/fold turn and river.

[GrunchCan]

There is some bad advice in this thread.

You played this hand fine.

Posters advocating that you should have folded PF to CO's raise are wrong. Posters who advocate not limping in PF with Axs in MP2 are wrong and need to work on table selection. Posting from MP is fine. It really matters very little.

[Thigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Posters who advocate not limping in PF with Axs in MP2 are wrong and need to work on table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Help me out here. Can you elaborate on the table selection part? Thanks for the help.

[GrunchCan]

Axs can be played at tables that are loose and passive. Both attributes are needed, although at a table that is especially loose, Axs can stand a single PF raise.

So, if you are not able to play AXs becasue it is -EV to do so, then that is becasue you are not playing at the right tables. Seek out loose-passive tables.

[Thigh]

Thanks much. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TALLBrad]

If you think your aggression is too low the wrong way to go about it is arbitrarily betting and raising.

In the case of this hand, you have bottem pair, no backdoor flush, no backdoor straight draw. Your only hope is the 5 outs for trip 2s or two pair. If you think those outs are good a call on the flop is OK. Given the action that has happened, I check/fold this hand on the river.

For me personally I improved my aggression greatly by reducing the amount of times that I called vs. specifically betting or raising more. Remember that aggression is the sum of bets + raises / calls. To get higher aggression you bet and raise more, or Call Less. It is close to fit or fold mentality but I constantly think of the strength of my hand and if it can improve to win. If it can't I'm out. If it can I usually push it. Note that my agg numbers fluctuate between 2.1 and 2.5.

[GrunchCan]

For those who don't believe that limping A2s in MP or EP can be +EV, read this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=1521862&amp;Forum =All_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bbehold&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp; Main=1521862&amp;Search=true&amp;where=sub&amp;Name=16000&amp;date range=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype =&amp;bodyprev=#Post1521862)

[tiltaholic]

grunch-
you bet this flop?
-t

[GrunchCan]

I bet the flop becasue I have a pair + a nut overcard to the board. If I had any other kicker I wouldn't bet the flop. If the board were worse I wouldn't bet the flop. But the flop is raggy and uncoordinated, with the exception of the spades. I think there actually is a reasonable chance that I might have the best hand, and that's why I bet the flop.

Incidentally, CO's flop raise doesn't scare me. It actually makes me happy. It makes me happy because it protected my hand from BB, who might have some crappy TP draw like Kx or Qx or even worse. CO either has something like TP or an overpair, or he has a flush draw. Against the TP I'm drawing to 5, and against the flush draw I'm a favorite. Considering CO's PFR against only a poster, we really have no reason to put him on a PP. It's very likely he's on a steal attempt.

This is a marginal hand, to be sure. But that doesn't mean its a crap hand. There is definite value here. Marginal hands are very hard to play. But since most of our hands are marginal, we need to pick up all the value we can with them.

[tiltaholic]

yeah. i hear you.
for me i think it would be table/read dependent.
if it was middle pair ace-kicker...i bet in a heartbeat, but i just can't stomach the pair of twos.

i agree that check calling is not a good play (or not as good have having villian raise out BB).

do you fold UI to a turn bet?

[ QUOTE ]
against the flush draw I'm a favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? he has 15 outs twice to beat a pair of twos...he'll hit something 54% of the time. and we know we're checking the turn so he gets to see both turn and river for free.

i think the river bet is a true value bet is the sense that i think we're good here like 50.1% of the time.

[jba]

I don't get it?

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
If that's agressive, I don't know if I'll ever be aggressive. First, I don't know if I would have even called pre-flop, without a good read on the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for your input, very good advice. posts that say "I don't like your play because...." are so much more helpful than "wrong try again".

about PF play: Did you see I posted here? I think my general standards when I post is to play about like I would from BB, maybe a tiny bit looser because of position (depending, of course, on position). I usually call in BB for one bet. Can you answer which of these apply to you?

- wouldn't call BB for one bet
- my reasoning is totally off on this- when posting you're actually tighter than BB?


[ QUOTE ]
So, what was the outcome? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

QQ and 88: MHING

[Thigh]

I think the minimum sample is supposed to be 10K hands.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the minimum sample is supposed to be 10K hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

minimum sample for what exactly, posting a hand in this forum, or making adjustments in play?

I'm not saying "I have 10K hands and my AF is x.x%?", I'm just saying I've put a fair number of hands in, I've reviewed tons of them, and I've determined that my post flop play is very passive, to the point where I'd like to change it. This isn't about stats, I didn't even mention stats.

[Jingleheimer]

PF is fine.

Check-fold the flop. You have about 4.5 outs to 2 pair or better. Your A outs are not all clean. If you check, CO bets, BB folds, you are only getting 7.5:1.

Once you bet, you pretty much have your odds to call the raise.

But, since you did bet, CO's raise seems like he doesn't have the flush draw, so that information may tell you the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif is ok (although against AT, it's trouble)

Now that you're here, turn check is what you want. In retrospect, it looks like CO was just protecting his overs or a PP less than tens on the flop, since he checks thru.

I think a check/call or check/fold on the river may be best- he may bluff at you, and you don't want to get check raised if he hit a J or wakes up again.

J

[Thigh]

Hey, don't ask me. I didn't put that post up.

[Thigh]

Well, I looked through the FAQ, but still can't find out what PP stands for. Can someone help me? Thanks.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the minimum sample is supposed to be 10K hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

minimum sample for what exactly, posting a hand in this forum, or making adjustments in play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please ignore the gimmick poster who implied that your sample size is too small. It didn't make much sense to me, either. If you think you aren't aggressive enough, then you very well could be right. IMO, this hand was a great one to post.

Good post.

But please also take very close to heart TALLBrad's excellent advice:

[ QUOTE ]
If you think your aggression is too low the wrong way to go about it is arbitrarily betting and raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggression is a tool. Use it at the right times.

[tiltaholic]

pp=pocket pair

[detruncate]

One of the reasons these sorts of hands can be expensive post-flop is that you often have to take them futher than you feel comfortable doing.

I don't mind the flop bet 3-way, and you got your result. The problem is that the raise will often be a free card play, so you're pretty much committed to leading the turn. If he raises, it's a clear fold. If he calls, it gets trickier -- he probably doesn't have odds unless he's on a flush draw, but he's close if he's valuing his overcards at 6 outs. He also might think A-high might be good and that we're pumping our flush draw... so I don't think you can interpret his call as a certain indication that we're behind.

And we sometimes find ourselves on the river. Will he call his A-high down here? Is he just a bit timid with a winning hand? Hopefully he folds the turn and we don't need to worry about it, but if not, we need to run through a probability estimate like always. What are the chances we're a favourite when called? Is he more likely to call with something we beat, or check when bet to? If we check, will he be bet a losing hand often enough to make calling worthwhile? You know the drill, and a lot depends on our perception of our opponent.

The decision point is on the flop. If you plan to continue, you need to be prepared to make the turn bet unless the situation changes a lot. If you're going to check this turn, don't bet the flop -- fold equity on the turn helps us improve the value of our hand quite a bit, as overcards will only get one street to improve a significant percetage of the time.

Overall, I think we have plenty to work with. We're paired on a board that looks unfavourable for a pf raiser. We have potential reverse domination going for us. It's only 3-way at worst, and we can re-evaluate our position if everyone sees the turn. Let's play poker.

[Thigh]

Thanks very much.