Anyone fold either of these turns?

[akira]

Hand 1:
UTG+1 is good, 21.74/8.7/5.85.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Hand 2:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds.

River: (5.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

[sfwusc]

One no.

A good players plays a flush draw differently. They would have raised or not played anything that beat KQ unless they have a set.


Again weird flush draw play if they have the flush.

[Terrabon98]

without knowing anything else about the players...I think I'm beat, but I call them both down

[tetonpete]

1. No..Kx is very possible. You're getting 7.25-1 and heads up. While the CR is scary, many 2-4 players will CR any top pair. Against 2 pair you have up to 9 outs. I don't think you'll be up against the fush or straight enough times to fold. The river call is automatic.

2. Against a loose player UTG i would raise this preflop. This turn decision is a little tougher. The pot is smaller, and two draws just came in. You also have another player still to act behind you who liked the flop. More importantly, no one is likely to have hit a hand you can beat. A big /images/graemlins/heart.gif is a possibilty, and you have no redraws against a flush, while any heart can beat you on the river. I'd lean towards folding.

[Clarkmeister]

Hand 1 I'm not folding.

Hand 2 I'm raising preflop and not folding.

[akira]

[ QUOTE ]
One no.

A good players plays a flush draw differently. They would have raised or not played anything that beat KQ unless they have a set.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good call on that one, UTG+1 had 55 for a set.

[ QUOTE ]

Again weird flush draw play if they have the flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

UTG was somewhat loose, he did have the A5h for the flush. Just curious what play would you have expected for the flush draw in this situation?

[Clarkmeister]

BTW, you should consider posting in other people's threads instead of just your own. It'll help you get better, it helps others, and its in the spirit of what this forum is about. Taking but not giving is wrong. Besides, you'll be surprised at how much you learn from talking about other people's hands.

[Wired Jokers]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 I'm raising preflop and not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree raising is good. But since we are in the position we have made for ourselves, I cannot for the life of me think why a fold would not be appropriate.

- This is Party 2/4.
- Party players love to play their middle pairs.
- The 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif has just completed a flush.
- Most important: the pot is small.

Is it really worth it here? All that's been drilled into me over the last year and a half, since reading these forums, is play tighter when the pot is small, looser when big. I know we have top pair, good kicker, but I just can't see being ahead here.

I guess I could raise, and fold to a three-bet. I just hate calling down. It makes me feel dirty and used.

[Jules22]

i would fold to the turn check raise in hand 1, especially if your read of the player is he is good. i dont think most people prolly call the flop and checkraise the turn and cant beat a king, plus another club will bury you most likely. hand 2 is really tough, but without reads i guess i call down. sometimes people take weird lines like that with absurd holdings

[akira]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, you should consider posting in other people's threads instead of just your own. It'll help you get better, it helps others, and its in the spirit of what this forum is about. Taking but not giving is wrong. Besides, you'll be surprised at how much you learn from talking about other people's hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken.. I really do appreciate everyone's help here, reading and posting here has definitely improved my game.. I'm pretty new to the SS forum though so I was a little wary of going around spouting bad advice /images/graemlins/smile.gif