20-40 Commerce Cold 4 Bet

[Klepton]

playing Saturday at 20-40 commerce in the worst area of the casino - some small group of 5 tables they set up near the even more degenerate no bust blackjack area - becasue the LA Poker Classic is on andthere are too many games higher than 20-40 to fill 60 tables in the high limit room.

the game is great, average 5-7 to the flop for 2 or more bets, except for the 50's white clean shaven ipod-wearing guy just to my left. He's only been in 4 hands, all of which he has 3 bet or raised-capped when it got back to him, and has bet the whole way, even value betting vary scary boards, and never showing his hand because no one calls him on the river. After every one ofhis hands I have said "nice hand," and he doesn't respond. (i don't think he likes people)

anyway onto the hand, I get QQ and UTG+1 raises (pretty solid lady but a little too losse postflop), I 3-bet, and Villain immediatly 4-bets, folded to super loose retard in the SB who asks me "do you want me to call" and i respond "you don't whatever you want," so he calls. lady calls and 4 of us to the flop

6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

checked to Villain who bets, all call

turn: 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif

checked to Villain who bets, all call

river 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checked to Villain who bets, SB folds, UTG fold A/images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif face up, I call

comments?

[TStoneMBD]

wow you got to play your overpair harder than this man. just because it was capped preflop doesnt necessarily mean aces or kings are lurking. you cant let all the players chase to their draws at odds these great.

[onegymrat]

Hi Klepton,

Did you consider betting the flop so villian could raise out SB and UTG, and then play accordingly?

[andyfox]

In these situations, I'm going to bet either the flop or the turn. If the pre-flop capper raises, I'm not necesssarily unhappy about it with my vulnerable queens. With the flop rainbow raggedy, I think I'd bet out right there.

Here's hoping he had pocket jacks.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
The game is great, average 5-7 to the flop for 2 or more bets, except for the 50's white clean shaven ipod-wearing guy just to my left. He's only been in 4 hands, all of which he has 3 bet or raised-capped when it got back to him, and has bet the whole way, even value betting vary scary boards, and never showing his hand because no one calls him on the river. After every one ofhis hands I have said "nice hand," and he doesn't respond. (i don't think he likes people)

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy must be one of those poker bots I keep hearing about.

[imported_stealthcow]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Klepton,

Did you consider betting the flop so villian could raise out SB and UTG, and then play accordingly?

[/ QUOTE ]

bet out the flop if you're worried you might be behind

c/r the flop if you think you are ahead (as you're trapping everyone else)

stealthcow-

[danderso8]

TStone & gymrat nailed it. Gotta push a little harder, make him tell you that you are behind & force everyone either out or to pay to draw.

--Dan

[cnfuzzd]

Checkraising the flop seems like it would be the most equitable move given that villian is essentially an unknown who could be playing a fairly wide (for a tag) range of hands. When you are ahead, you are padding the pot by getting some more money in, and when you are ahead, you get more money in. Also, its very likely that if you are ahead, your opponents are holding each others outs.

peace

john nickle

[mike l.]

id rather never play poker again than not checkraise the turn there. checkraising the turn there with all those people in with a big overpair is what being good at limit hold em is all about. if 4 better has you beat than so be it, but it's just too great of a set up to not checkraise there.

[Klepton]

if i were to check raise the flop and i get 3-bet, i'm still calling down right?

i can't do the math but the only hands i could put him on was AA, KK, AKs, QQ, JJ...

after he bet the river the only hands I put him on was AA, KK, QQ, JJ, no player like that would bet into 4 opponenets with AK...

i figured i want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, was i wrong?

[mike l.]

"if i were to check raise the flop and i get 3-bet, i'm still calling down right?"

nah. it would mean he has to have you badly beat. you can fold then. or call down, it doesnt really matter. you lose two bets extra when youre beat but you get all sorts of extra bets from the other stragglers the times youre ahead or spike a Q on the river.

"i can't do the math but the only hands i could put him on was AA, KK, AKs, QQ, JJ..."

nah he could have other hands, all anyone has done in the hand is check and call so he could bet any pair on the turn and think it's probably still good.

"after he bet the river the only hands I put him on was AA, KK, QQ, JJ, no player like that would bet into 4 opponenets with AK..."

ive seen stranger things.

"i figured i want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, was i wrong?"

no that's fine. i just think that a turn raise here would have a bit more edge because of the sb and other guy calling along. and preflop capper may even slow down with a better hand sometimes. higher limits most everyone would repump again there with AA and KK so the turn checkraise is tougher call there, but most 20-40 players are too scared too often and theyll just call down with KK there.

[Klepton]

he looked right at me and said "i have two queens" and i just sank in relief and said "nice freakin hand" and showed my queens also...we then got to taling and he said how because i didn't bet the flop he figured me for jacks

this brings up a small question, so you think by me check raising the flop or checkraising the turn, would this guy ever let go of his hand the same way you guys advised me to?

[mike l.]

"would this guy ever let go of his hand the same way you guys advised me to?"

you mean is this guy going to fold QQ on that board?

no chance. never.

[onegymrat]

I really don't see how attempting to checkraise is the best play here with three opponents. Many agree that although the 4-bettor is most likely to keep betting, but may hold an assortment of hands, not enough emphasis is put on the fact that there are two other opponents that you keep letting in. The pot is already very big. You already maintained that SB is clueless, and could have anything. Do you really want her to see the turn with a gutshot/small pair for only one bet? I can see this as a plausible solution if you held aces, but there are still two overcards out there. Also, can you count on 4-bettor to bet the turn as well?

Checkraising the flop or the turn assumes the fact that you are way ahead, but it will not chase them out of seeing the river, since it's only one extra raised bet for them to call. As Mike L. said, if 4-bettor has a bigger pp, so be it, but I would do all I can to chase out the other two so that the only hand that beats me is 4-bettor, and not by over/under playing QQ and letting some schmuck catch up. And the best way to approach this IMO is to play off 4-bettor's aggression and bet the flop.

[na4bart]

You really needed to c/r the villians flop bet. Doesn't matter if he has AA or KK, you need to get the dead money into the pot while giving yourself the best chance to win this large pot if your QQ is the best hand. So he four bets, it doesn't make him superman. Yikes!

[BradL]

The point is that no one is folding this hand at any point before the river. If you bet the turn the flop bettor will likely only raise with hands that beat you. Since protecting your hand is out of the question checkraising the turn to get the most in when you are ahead is the best viable option.

-Brad

[El Dukie]

[ QUOTE ]
50's white clean shaven ipod-wearing guy just to my left. He's only been in 4 hands, all of which he has 3 bet or raised-capped when it got back to him, and has bet the whole way, even value betting vary scary boards, and never showing his hand because no one calls him on the river. After every one ofhis hands I have said "nice hand," and he doesn't respond. (i don't think he likes people)


[/ QUOTE ]

Knock 20 years off the age, substitute a Creative MP3 player for the iPod, and I'm looking in a mirror. Right down to the misanthropy. Especially the misanthropy. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[mike l.]

"The point is that no one is folding this hand at any point before the river."

that's what i was gonna say. well done.

[andyfox]

I disagree that nobody is folding before the river and that, therefore, protecting the hand is impossible. The Commerce players in 20-40 fold more when the pots are bigger than when they're not. This sounds ridiculous but it is true. When the pot is capped pre-flop and then raised on the flop or the turn, they assume you have a big pocket pair and their chances of winning are correspondingly reduced. Anyway, once the pot is big, as it is when capped pre-flop, I'm more concerned about winning it than about getting the most in, unless I have a monster.

[Klepton]

i'm gonna disagree with you therer, because if they have any chance of beating your big pocket pair (whether it be a 10 outer or a 1 outer) they are going to the river, especially at commerce...

btw the donk in the sb (he called me with King high in one hand because he thought i could be bluffing...he said young kids bluff a lot, who knew) said he folded AK also...

i feel that I am much weaker in live games then online, for example if i were to get raised on the river after i value bet, and i fold... people remember this much more than online where it was a quick hand that many may have not noticed... i'm kinda going into a rant, i'll just stop and say thank you to mike l for thinking the exact same way about all commerce regulars

[andyfox]

"if they have any chance of beating your big pocket pair (whether it be a 10 outer or a 1 outer) they are going to the river, especially at commerce..."

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then, because that's not my experience. Anecdotally, check out J.A. Sucker's results post in his 1-2 thread. Assuming one can't eliminate some of the other players is presuming more than my experience in the games dictates. And, paradoxically, it's often easier when the pots are bigger, since they assume you made the pot bigger with a big hand that they might be drawing dead against.

"All commerce regulars" are not alike.

I fiugured the guy in the small blind probably had something pretty good when he asked you if you wanted him to play.

[CardSharpCook]

I see two viable ways of playing this hand. Lead into the PF-raiser on the flop (you are figuring he will raise and this will clean up the table - runner runners fold, overcards maybe) or you are chk/rzing the turn. This really is perfect position and board for that move.

Also, there is no such thing as a pot too big. It can always be bigger especially when you likely have the best hand. I understand the desire to get outs to fold especially when holding the always vulnerable QQ. But, I like the turn chk/rz to get those extra BBs into the pot.

CSC

[andyfox]

"there is no such thing as a pot too big. It can always be bigger especially when you likely have the best hand."

There are clearly times when you want an opponent (or opponents) to fold despite the fact that you currently have the best hand.