What do you do with double paired broadways?

[DeadManJay]

I'm a complete newb to omaha, but I've been testing the waters. This is the question, I hope it's not too dumb...
I was dealt QQJJ in the SB earlier today with a raise before me. What do you do in this situation? Also what do you do with the same cards in LP when you can limp?

[BradleyT]

In SB I probably call depending on how big the pot is (otherwise fold to a small pot). In LP I call.

Big pairs aren't the same monsters in o/8 as they are in hold em.

[djr]

against a raise it depends on how many people are in the pot (and thus how big the pot is/will be), the bigger the pot the better your odds. In an unraised pot, I'll limp in late position. With these hands you're looking to flop top set that will improve to a strong boat by the river. The nice thing about these hands is if you miss the flop you can easily bail it. If you hit, the odds a low will also hit are small so you tend to scoop.

[lighterjobs]

this is an o/8 forum, not omaha high.

[DeadManJay]

I'm missing your statement, this is an o/8 hand...

[Klak]

i actaully like to raise with these hands. i wouldnt reraise in this situation but i would take a flop for sure. QQJJ is a strong hand because if you hit well on the flop, you will have a good chance to scoop since there isnt going to be a low hand most of the time.

[lighterjobs]

oh, you just said omaha hand. the reason it matters is because limit o/8 and plo are two different games where you would treat the hand differently.

[johnnybeef]

when you are drawing to a high only, you want to get in as cheap as possible and preferably in lp.

[lighterjobs]

IMO, this isn't a raising hand. i would see a flop cheaply with this.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]

i actaully like to raise with these hands

[/ QUOTE ]

this may be a leak in your game. with qqjj, you are drawing to about 6 cards (when you count a flush if you are suited and straight as a card each). the real problem with this is that sets are not very strong in omaha hilo. consider that in hilo many people will stay in with any low. also consider that 7 out of 10 of your opponents are suited. this means that many times your opponents will take the high with a backdoor flush or straight while playing their low as well.

[Klak]

the point i made in my post was that when i do make a good hand, theres not likey to be ANY low, at all, none, not possible. my card is going to take up a spot that the low hand needs. i like to raise so that low hands chase when i make my hand. i also said i would NOT raise here. read the post, THEN respond.

[BradleyT]

The point of the other posters is that that doesn't happen often enough to justify paying double to see the flop when you can see it for 1.

And QQJJ isn't a strong hand lol.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
i actaully like to raise with these hands. i wouldnt reraise in this situation but i would take a flop for sure. QQJJ is a strong hand because if you hit well on the flop, you will have a good chance to scoop since there isnt going to be a low hand most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

QQJJ is definitely not a raising hand, unless you want to mix up your game, it only does marginally better against a random hand. You will need to hit a very good flop in order to scoop and if you hit your set with all high cards you will most likely need to fill up to win the pot. I'd try to get in as cheaply as possible. I'd fold unless there's lots of people in (ie the pot is big.)

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
the point i made in my post was that when i do make a good hand, theres not likey to be ANY low, at all, none, not possible. my card is going to take up a spot that the low hand needs. i like to raise so that low hands chase when i make my hand. i also said i would NOT raise here. read the post, THEN respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, are you planning on scooping if the pot comes something like J78? Or how about JKA? You're not going to flop J55 very often to make raising a good play.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
the point i made in my post was that when i do make a good hand, theres not likey to be ANY low, at all, none, not possible. my card is going to take up a spot that the low hand needs. i like to raise so that low hands chase when i make my hand. i also said i would NOT raise here. read the post, THEN respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just plain wrong. This is what gives the broadway wraparound hands their strength, but this line of reasoning just doesn't hold too much water here. Just cause they can't flop a low when you hit a set doesn't mean there's not likely to be ANY low. J63 Q87 Q35 J74 J23 Q85 J76 Q54 J24 Q28.............................

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
i actaully like to raise with these hands. i wouldnt reraise in this situation but i would take a flop for sure. QQJJ is a strong hand because if you hit well on the flop, you will have a good chance to scoop since there isnt going to be a low hand most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might raise with QQJJ in two situations. 1) there are 5+ of limpers, I’m in LP, its double suited; 2) I’m in cutoff/button, table is pretty tight, everyone folds to me.

Even including that, raising QQJJ as a typical play is a mistake, IMHO

--Greg

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
1) there are 5+ of limpers, I’m in LP, its double suited;
--Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation is still a mistake, do a simulation of QQJJds vs 5 random hands, the edge your hand has is marginal at best.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) there are 5+ of limpers, I’m in LP, its double suited;
--Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation is still a mistake, do a simulation of QQJJds vs 5 random hands, the edge your hand has is marginal at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, again, I wouldn’t do it as my typical play.

Out of curiousity, how would QQJJ do vs. 5 hands that are not random but are skewed low, like they should be with this many callers?

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) there are 5+ of limpers, I’m in LP, its double suited;
--Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation is still a mistake, do a simulation of QQJJds vs 5 random hands, the edge your hand has is marginal at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does the sim pan out if we put 3-4 aces, and the majority of 2s and 3s into those 5 hands and leave a couple of random cards in each?

The reasoning often given in Omaha/8 litterature for raising in this position is that the horde of limpers is going to have gobbled up low cards and especially aces, thus severely reducing the chances of there even being a low hand possible on the final board.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
The reasoning often given in Omaha/8 litterature for raising in this position is that the horde of limpers is going to have gobbled up low cards and especially aces, thus severely reducing the chances of there even being a low hand possible on the final board.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I've seen this before, too, although I'm not sure I buy it. Super/System 2 discusses it, actually. Baldwin there says if there are a lot of limpers, players will typically be playing a mix of both low and high hands, and the deck is actually rich in middle cards.

[djr]

but isn't that simulation assuming you take it to the river? If you hit a flop that's like Q94 rainbow you're going to like it and continue on, as will several of the back door lows. But if you miss the flop you get to dump right away. Simulations are a good place to start, but unless they take into account reasonable postflop play you have to take the numbers with a grain of salt.

[Yads]

True, but simulations also are a good indicator of how our hand measures up pre flop and if our edge is extremely small even against random hands then wouldn't that indicate that raising is a bad play? Unless your goal is to mix it up and show some of the better players at the table that your raise doesn't necessarily mean good 2 way hand.

That's an interesting point raised about the deck being rich in mid to broadway cards when there are a lot of limpers. I'll have to try that simulation when I get home.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) there are 5+ of limpers, I’m in LP, its double suited;
--Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation is still a mistake, do a simulation of QQJJds vs 5 random hands, the edge your hand has is marginal at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does the sim pan out if we put 3-4 aces, and the majority of 2s and 3s into those 5 hands and leave a couple of random cards in each?

The reasoning often given in Omaha/8 litterature for raising in this position is that the horde of limpers is going to have gobbled up low cards and especially aces, thus severely reducing the chances of there even being a low hand possible on the final board.

[/ QUOTE ]

They've gobbled up high and low cards leaving middle cards to show on the board.