bet to justify calling a raise?

[astroglide]

online 5/10

i have 4h4c in the big blind

mp open-raises, guy next to him calls, i call, and we see the flop 3-handed

flop comes down 2c 2h Ah. i bet (anybody checkfold here?), both call.

turn is the 5h, so i've got outs for a flush (possibly dead), full house (possibly dead), and straight (only 3 outs are clean). i checked, it was bet and raised to me, and i folded.

the river was the 4 of course, but that doesn't really matter

preflop raiser had aqo (no heart), turn raiser had a5o (no heart). i couldn't have known how many outs i had here, but my main question is how many of you would bet the turn just so you could justify calling the 1 raise that will probably come back to you, as opposed to checkfolding to the almost-as-likely 2 bets cold coming at you?

[David Sklansky]

Betting, simply to justify calling a raise, is basically a fallacious concept.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Astroglide,

You wrote: ”flop comes down 2c 2h Ah. i bet (anybody checkfold here?), both call.”

You would tend to fold after checking on the flop (checkfold) if you were facing a bet and a call. At eight to one, you are usually up against an ace but the pot isn’t big enough to chase hoping for a small full.

”turn is the 5h, so i've got outs for a flush (possibly dead), full house (possibly dead), and straight (only 3 outs are clean). i checked, it was bet and raised to me, and i folded.”

With this board and prior action, I like checking the turn after getting two flop callers. It is just too likely you are beat big and will be facing a raise. Against one flop caller usually bet again.

”how many of you would bet the turn just so you could justify calling the 1 raise that will probably come back to you, as opposed to checkfolding to the almost-as-likely 2 bets cold coming at you?”

If I bet the turn my bet would be based on its own merits. If I was raised my decision to call would be based on the merits of the call. But you rarely bet a weak hand on an expensive street knowing it will probably be raised and you have just enough odds on calling the raise to take one more off. In that case, check-folding is better or check-calling is OK if the odds are there (along with enough doubt that you are beat, especially if you get head up).

Regards,

Rick

PS Whatever happened to capital letters (as in AQo as opposed to aqo)?

[Tommy Angelo]

Assuming you are the kind of player who promises some sort of hand with the flop bet, I think you should bet the turn because:

1) You have tons of outs or the best hand

2) It is unlikely you will be raised by an ace because of the trips and three-flush on board

3) To give some better hands, like pocket pairs and shaky aces, a reason to fold.

Even if someone has an ace (and I'm not convinced by being called), that means one of their cards is not a heart, meaning your flush draw has a viable chance of being live. And straight draws matter. And so do full-house draws.

I'd bet the turn on momentum, having not been raised on the flop, and after picking up a turn card that helps my hand directly, and indirectly by slowing them down or giving them cause to fold.

Things happen. I guy can raise UTG with KQ suited and take one off on the flop, even with an ace out there, hoping that you might be betting a flush draw or pocket pair. But no way will he call a turn bet if you keep firing. But if you check the turn, he gets a freeroll to six outs, and now he will call the river if he pairs because the turn got checked around. It is these situations, why aggression pays.

Tommy

[astroglide]

elaborating a little, as i have given the wrong impression

i'm not planning on betting because i know i'm going to raise; i'm planning on betting because of the value of betting (i could have the best hand, i have a decent chance at having the best draw, and they may fold). there is a better chance of it getting bet and raised if i check because somebody will be trying to take control back of the hand, and that's why i look back on it and think i should have bet.