Difficult 99 Hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

StellarWind

02-22-2005, 01:02 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 can play. BB and the PFR are unknowns. The rest of the people taking the flop are loose/passive/bad.

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero bets ...

spydog

02-22-2005, 01:08 PM

I checkraise the flop and lead the turn. You are probably ahead and I want to give people a chance to fold their overcards.

Since you just called the whole way, I'm inclined to lead the river. Too good a chance that JJ+ will check this one thru with 4 to a straight on the board. Hopefully, I get raised with callers in between and possibly 3-bet, depending on the where the raise came from and who called.

cdy

02-22-2005, 01:10 PM

How can you fail to protect your hand here? If you're going to check the flop, it seems like you should definitely be check-raising this when it comes back to you to make it two for utg and utg+1. I then lead out on the turn and call a raise.

sean c

02-22-2005, 01:10 PM

Thoughts on the flop? I check raise here.

PokerBob

02-22-2005, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 can play. BB and the PFR are unknowns. The rest of the people taking the flop are loose/passive/bad.

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Hero bets ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not c/r the flop, as you don't want overcards to call.

Redeye

02-22-2005, 01:13 PM

I think I probably would've played it similarly. The flop is too big to do anything to protect your hand. You probably don't want to c/r the turn because if UTG+2 is still firing he probably has a large pair and there is no reason to isolate yourself against him so calling with probably 6 clean outs is good. The river is a nice bet becauase you can get multiple callers and with the 4 straight it could get checked through.

The only thing I could think of is maybe betting out on the turn just in case UTG+2 has overcards and will check possibly risking the turn getting checked through. But if your read is that he's passive, he probably wouldn't be betting with overcards on the flop anyways.

sfer

02-22-2005, 01:14 PM

You should stop the action on the flop and ask for opinions.

Redeye

02-22-2005, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I checkraise the flop and lead the turn. You are probably ahead and I want to give people a chance to fold their overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a lot of people are folding, and your not really protecting anything offering 9:1 pot odds. Although our equity may be pretty decent here since the board isn't draw heavy, especially if a lot of these players have each others outs.

ErrantNight

02-22-2005, 01:17 PM

i'm alright w/ the flop c/call. i'm not sure you can do anything about protecting your hand, the first caller gets 1:9 on their hand and it just gets better from there.

i might, however, c/r the turn. i'm not sure the T is that scary for you... however, anyone with a T isn't going anywhere, nor is UTG+2 and if he isn't ahead he certainly has overcards, so i'm not sure that driving out the BB and UTG (if you could even do so) would be terribly advantageous, and there's and outside chance UTG+2 has a big overpair that they're willing to 3-bet this turn with.

All that is enough to make me think that getting overcalls from probable dead money is enough to offshoot the possibility they'll hit their miracle draw on the river.

You can't risk the river being checked through now that you've hit YOUR miracle draw, so even though you're unlikely at best to get it raised, lead it out.

I think you could consider a c/r there, but I find less an argument here than on the turn.

So in summary: just fine.

spydog

02-22-2005, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think a lot of people are folding, and your not really protecting anything offering 9:1 pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. We are protecting our hand versus Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx, Tx. And, people are likely to fold a hand containing 2 crappy overcards when facing 2 cold.

MercTec

02-22-2005, 01:31 PM

I agree...AK or AQ will call here, but I cant see any of the hands spydog mentions calling. And if they do, they would be drawing to only 3 outs, thus making it an unprofitable call.

I like the CR on the flop and re-evaluate if 3-bet.

meep_42

02-22-2005, 01:33 PM

With only 1 caller between you and PFR, i'm raising this flop when it gets back to me to try to knock out those between us, then i'm leading the turn if he doesn't 3-bet me. If 3-bet, i'm calling the turn with a gutshot.

-d

chief444

02-22-2005, 01:38 PM

Yea...I think I like raising the flop as well. And leading the turn if there's no 3-bet. Although I like it less with UTG+2 being described as "loose passive". If he's really passive then calling is probably OK.

Everything else in the hand seems fairly straightforward.

sfer

02-22-2005, 01:40 PM

FWIW, I think I see your plan and your turn adjustment and play it about the same.

chief444

02-22-2005, 01:47 PM

Just out of curiosity, did you plan on betting out on a turn blank but then check/called when the T fell?

runa

02-22-2005, 01:52 PM

Flop:
A CR here probably wouldn't work. Its clearly a very loose table by the action preflop. With 9:1 thats offering odds plus implied to allow any 4+ outers to call here. Suited overcards, offsuited with backdoor potential, or any gutshots have odds to call here, so while your edge might be present, it's still very small.

Turn:
A CR here offers ~7:1 which now offers odds to 6+ outers with only one more card to come, so if we were to assume you were ahead, perhaps incorrectly, I might use a CR here just because it shuts out most of the weaker draws (non-spade suited overs), lowpair-x 5 outers that may hit lucky on the river, or 7x (Q7,K7,A7,etc) which might clean up your set outs if you spike it on the river. Unfortunately flush draws, Tx, or anything that has lots of potential or might already be ahead will not fold here, and you have 3 clean and 3 dirty outs to continue with implied odds and all that.

River:
Leading the river is easy here since checking through 5 ways would be criminal.

EDIT: Clean up 9 outs by 7x not 9x on turn, my mistake

rmarotti

02-22-2005, 02:01 PM

Looks good. Do you think you should have done something differently?

gaming_mouse

02-22-2005, 02:25 PM

Stellar,

FWIW, I think not raising the flop is fine, especially if you think these players are bad/loose enough where they are just going to call anyway.

I like the river too. Of course you might go for a c/r, and I don't see it getting checked thru w/ five players, so you don't have to worry about that. The problem though is that if UTG+2 is the one who bets, as seems likely, it will net you less than a bet. Plus, your bet also leaves open the delicious possibility that you get 3 callers, and THEN a raise from UTG+2.

Nice hand,
gm

Richard Berg

02-22-2005, 03:29 PM

Well played and I don't think it's close. Bad players aren't folding Ax on the flop, and any 2 broadway are correct to call anyway. It also disguises your hand and keeps you from getting committed to showdown, which is good since the value of your hand will change dramatically with the next cards.

Turn is a classic example of check-call with outs / bet without. Having let the bad PFR retain control, you must bet the river.

wuwei

02-22-2005, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I think I see your plan and your turn adjustment and play it about the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the adjustment you're referring to here the fact that UTG+2 has again bet his hand into 5 players and this raggedy ass board and thus we need to reevaluate the range of hands were putting him on? At this point, the likelihood of an overpair or a T has increased quite a bit. Therefore, it may make more sense to just call instead of protecting his possible best hand with a raise and take our shot at spiking a 7 on the river.

I like the river bet. I played a very similar hand a couple weeks ago where I checked the a river like this and the bettor decided not to follow through on the river with his overcards. After that, I vowed to bet more rivers in these types of hands.

Redeye

02-22-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong. We are protecting our hand versus Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx, Tx. And, people are likely to fold a hand containing 2 crappy overcards when facing 2 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is somewhat not true. If your making the assumption that UTG+2 is betting overcards and we're in fact in the lead, then we're not really protecting our hand from players with Ax, Kx, ect since it is likely UTG+2 is betting something like AQ or AK and these players would be drawing very thin to both you and UTG+2. If UTG+2 has an overpair, we certainly don't need to protect our hand as we are already behind and drawing to two outs. I think at best you maybe can get someone to fold something like JT or QJ which are probably more clean outs against you in this case. But first you need to have these hands present in the two players to act after you, and hope they fold to your raise even though they're still getting odds to draw.

If we're ahead, there is no reason to try and protect from unpaired Ax or Kx hands here since those outs are probably dominated by UTG+2. In addition, no player with Ax where the x is paired is going to fold anyways.

I just don't think hand protection is the reason to raise here. If we knew UTG+2 has overcards we might have an equity edge with this many opponents, especially since the flop isn't too drawy, but thats tough to tell without a read on UTG+2.

krishanleong

02-22-2005, 04:04 PM

I cr the flop. It's a decent way to force 3 players to face 2. I think your chances of winning unimproved go up significantly. I think the rest is fine. Sometimes I get fancy and go for a river cr.

Krishan

LinusKS

02-22-2005, 05:39 PM

I'm not convinced. There were a couple of folds, even without the c/r, and you have to consider the others don't know what the Hero has. They can't be sure their overcards are good. And then there's the original preflop raiser to consider, who could (for all you know) 3-bet his big pair.

Plenty of folks fold KJ, QJ, and KT to a c/r on this flop, and in this case, you probably want them to.

[ QUOTE ]
i'm alright w/ the flop c/call. i'm not sure you can do anything about protecting your hand, the first caller gets 1:9 on their hand and it just gets better from there.

i might, however, c/r the turn. i'm not sure the T is that scary for you... however, anyone with a T isn't going anywhere, nor is UTG+2 and if he isn't ahead he certainly has overcards, so i'm not sure that driving out the BB and UTG (if you could even do so) would be terribly advantageous, and there's and outside chance UTG+2 has a big overpair that they're willing to 3-bet this turn with.

All that is enough to make me think that getting overcalls from probable dead money is enough to offshoot the possibility they'll hit their miracle draw on the river.

You can't risk the river being checked through now that you've hit YOUR miracle draw, so even though you're unlikely at best to get it raised, lead it out.

I think you could consider a c/r there, but I find less an argument here than on the turn.

So in summary: just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

ErrantNight

02-22-2005, 05:49 PM

the fact that their WERE folds shouldn't factor into the decision that preceded them.

if you're not already behind to a bigger pocket pair, he at least has overcards. so therefore in order to clean up outs behind you, you need to be folding overcards that someone who has already put money into this pot doesn't already hold.

and as you say, you could get 3-bet here, which you wouldn't like.

that you might be able to fold some hands that have odds to draw isn't enough... you don't know that they will and you don't know that they have such hands.

second, there are a LOT of scary cards that can come on this turn. you can't raise for value on the flop, you're facing only two opponents with fairly good (for them) odds... just not good times.

further, the pot will be ginormous on the turn if you raise, particularly if you get calls. and if the aggressor to this point slows down with naked overcards, and someone else bets, your raise once again will be inefficient in protection your hand.

StacysMom

02-22-2005, 05:58 PM

i think this was played rather poorly, you have to protect ur hand in situations like these. a check raise is a fine suggestion for the flop, but i think a better play is to bet out on the flop. the 3 ppl between u and the prefop raiser can easily fold to a bet here since they probably caught no peice of the flop and fear a raise for the original raiser. i woudl guess 1 of the 3 call . hopefully the original raiser raises the flop and makes the ther 2 look at 2 cold. this probably leaves it 3 handed, in which case u bet a turn without an AK.

Nick C

02-22-2005, 07:08 PM

I'm pretty sure I would have checkraised the flop, although the more I think about, the less I actually like such a checkraise. It could potentially generate both incorrect folds and incorrect calls, but a key question is how often Hero is behind and is in fact drawing. When UTG+2 bets the flop into six opponents, the chances that UTG+2 has an overpair rather than overcards did just go up (although I think there is a tendency among some players to auto-bet the flop when checked to after raising preflop, regardless of the number of opponents). A checkraise might be for value, and it might help protect Hero's hand, but a checkraise is not for value those times that Hero needs to catch a set (or hit a backdoor straight). I guess when Hero is behind the checkraise could still have the benefit of cleaning up some outs, but Hero's draw is pretty weak to begin with.

If Hero is ahead on the flop, one nice thing about a checkraise is that it seems quite possible to me that it's people with unduplicated overcards who might fold instead of calling two. Maybe QT will go away while ace-rag stays in. (I'm not sure about that -- the pot is pretty big, after all -- but I think it's possible, especially if players fear a 3-bet from UTG+2.) I do think a loose player would more likely fold Q7s, which might have one overcard out (as well as a redraw against a turned set of nines), than A3o, which could be dominated by UTG+2's AK. One complication here, though, is that one of the three players who would be faced with two cold is UTG+1, who is described as a good player. (And, looking at the action, I'm wondering if he had something like a suited ace. I don't know what hand he abandoned, but he did fold, closing the action, getting 19:1.)

Once UTG+2 bets again on the turn, an overpair (or possibly even a set of tens) seems highly likely. Calling and chasing the gutshot outs and tainted set outs cheaply seems sensible to me.

On the river, I like the bet. No one has shown any strength except the PFR, and I am kind of worried the river will get checked through on this scary board.

cnfuzzd

02-22-2005, 07:15 PM

uhm, checkraising the flop means some people will still be getting 9:1. I dont think that makes anyone calling that big of a mistake. Also, the reads seem to imply that the number of bets to the other players wont matter. If the goddess of luck tells them to call, they will call, regardless of the number of bets.

For the record, i think this is very well played.

peace

john nickle

sfer

02-22-2005, 07:40 PM

I think the adjustment was that Stella was planning on checkraising a safe turn card but decided to call when he picked up 4 outs.

Nick C

02-22-2005, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the adjustment was that Stella was planning on checkraising a safe turn card but decided to call when he picked up 4 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero gets the opportunity to checkraise the turn, how much do you think the chances he's ahead just went down? How likely is an unknown Villain to fire again with just overcards after being called in four places on the flop? (Something like 77 is also possible, but I don't think Villain will have that very often.)

I don't know the answer to this question, and I'm wondering what a good estimation would be.

(Of course, it is also possible the bet will come from somewhere else besides UTG+2. Potentially, Hero could get the opportunity to checkraise MP3.)

cnfuzzd

02-22-2005, 09:13 PM

In a game with a bunch of loose-passives with an unknown acting agressive checkraising the turn is a bad idea. Unknown could easily be betting with overcards, and someone could easily have hit the ten and wont let you know.

I think there *is* an argument to be made on c/r the turn IF the pf raiser is still betting as its very likely that you will either a)have the best hand, or b) get enough callers to make it somewhat equitable. However, the pf raiser 3-betting is pretty devestating, but if you were merely going to call the turn bet, and call the river, c/ring and calling the 3bet and then folding the river unimproved would cost the same. Folding the best hand on the river against an unknown opponent who has demonstrated some degree of aggressiveness though would be horrible, so its a risky play.

peace

john nickle

WillMagic

02-22-2005, 09:20 PM

I'm check-raising this flop. I understand that it won't protect your hand as well as a turn check-raise, but the problem lies in the fact that the pfr will probably not bet the turn with overcards, and thus you will be check-raising when beat and giving away free cards when not.

Check-raising the flop seems much better. You give a lot of overcards and middle pairs a chance to make a bad fold (which they will make more than your realize) and it will help define the pfr's hand.

Will

Michael Davis

02-22-2005, 09:25 PM

I like not betting the flop, but I don't understand why you didn't checkraise when it got back to you with three opponents to act afterwards. This is a pretty damn big pot already. I also think there's no guarantee you will have the opportunity to checkraise the turn, and if UTG+2 bets again on a blank turn you're in some trouble anyways.

-Michael

WillMagic

02-22-2005, 09:29 PM

The issue isn't really protecting your hand...that's obviously impossible here. You can't create a situation where overcards are making a mistake if they call. You do, however, want to increase the chance that overcards will fold if you can, and while overcards will never fold to one bet, some players will fold them for two, and if you can get any of them to fold it's a coup.

You need to give people a chance to make mistakes. If you just call this flop there's no way anyone is folding overcards, because calling is so obviously correct If you raise you give people a chance to make an incorrect fold.

Will

WillMagic

02-22-2005, 09:38 PM

I just realized where the misunderstanding is here.

Everybody knows the importance of protecting your hand. You want to be able to protect your hand, and you should forgo a bet/raise that doesn't protect your hand for a bet/raise that does. BUT, if you can't protect your hand no matter what, then you should not forgo a raise simply because it doesn't protect your hand.

This is an instance where you are not able to protect your hand in any instance, because even if you get the opportunity to check-raise the turn you won't want to take it. So what's left, then? Well, you want people to make mistakes, if you can. There's no way to make people make a bad call, so try and make them make a bad fold. The best way to do that is to check-raise the flop.

Will

Nick C

02-22-2005, 09:38 PM

Do you think it's possible that Hero had a different plan for a turn card that looked like a blank than a checkraise?

Elizabeth

02-22-2005, 09:41 PM

Redeye

02-22-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The issue isn't really protecting your hand...that's obviously impossible here. You can't create a situation where overcards are making a mistake if they call. You do, however, want to increase the chance that overcards will fold if you can, and while overcards will never fold to one bet, some players will fold them for two, and if you can get any of them to fold it's a coup.

You need to give people a chance to make mistakes. If you just call this flop there's no way anyone is folding overcards, because calling is so obviously correct If you raise you give people a chance to make an incorrect fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, getting people to make incorrect folds is great, but the chances of that happening are much more slim when playing with "loose/passive/bad" opponents.

Also, protecting your hand, or getting people to make incorrect folds is less important if you are behind to UTG+2's big pair. Its a little more important on a more drawy board where people would have redraws if you improve, but there aren't a lot of draws out there. Now, if we're ahead to UTG+2's overs, he's not going anywhere, and he probably has AK-AK, KQ, ect. Therefore some of the overcard outs are being held by UTG+2 leaving a lot less possible hands they could have that you would really get excited about folding. So you need these types of hands to be out there, and for these people to fold. Something I don't think happens often enough to make much of a difference. I also don't think anyone who has paired up is laying it down on this board. Its a raggedy board, people understand that its less likely to have hit a PFRer and will know they have outs against a big pair, not to mention that they love sucking out on peoples AA.

Michael Davis

02-22-2005, 10:14 PM

Yes, I think he should bet a blank turn. But there's still the problem of likely having a bunch of people in-between that could possibly be cleared out by a flop checkrarise.

-Michael

StellarWind

02-22-2005, 11:32 PM

I was right all along. This hand is difficult /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

I've read all the responses and I'm still thinking about it. Some early comments:

1. I don't think there is any turn card that merits a checkraise after so many people called the flop. I simply cannot count on a worse hand betting. If I like the turn I need to bet out.

2. The ten unexpectedly converts my hand from primarily a weak made hand to primarily a moderate draw. With so many ways to be behind I can't expect to win unimproved very often.

3. The river is routine. Trying for a checkraise with a terrifying four straight on the board could easily make less money even if it succeeded. How many nonchopping hands will call a raise?

4. Protecting the hand on the flop is a consideration, but many posters greatly overestimate what can be done. If I am behind (50%+ behind someone IMO) then forcing people out is bad. I'd rather they feed the pot in case I spike. When I am ahead that means 2-4 overcards are already locked up in the hands that already put money on the flop. Additional overcards may be tied up in hands with other outs (e.g. T8, T9, Q8, 97) that cannot be folded. The chance of forcing out the only copy of an overcard is not very good. Even if an overcard is good and hits, the river will often render that overcard irrelevant--either I spike my nine and win anyway or a different bad card hits and finishes me off.

5. No one is talking about whether I can make money by checkraising the flop. Is this a value raise despite the risk of being second best? Not sure, but I think the correct evaluation of the hand lies here.

sfwusc

02-22-2005, 11:39 PM

I would check raise or lead the flop.

Bet the river unless you thinking about check raise. J9?

ITWASSOOOOTED

02-23-2005, 12:08 AM

I lead on the flop hope that the raiser protects my hand, I don't think a check raise gets many people out. My intention here is to find out where i stand with the raiser and knock out people calling with overcards. Mind you its true that they will call 1 bet anyhow if the pre flop raiser does not raise, but if you check raise no one is forced to call 2 bets cold instead they are calling one more bet and now have odds if they did not have them before, as the pot is much bigger. If raised on the flop i may or may not lead out on the turn, all depends what happens with the flop action. I definately lead out on the river.

GrunchCan

02-23-2005, 12:36 AM

This hand was played perfectly. I would have made the mistake of CR the flop. Its posts like these that improve my game.

sthief09

02-23-2005, 01:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like not betting the flop, but I don't understand why you didn't checkraise when it got back to you with three opponents to act afterwards. This is a pretty damn big pot already. I also think there's no guarantee you will have the opportunity to checkraise the turn, and if UTG+2 bets again on a blank turn you're in some trouble anyways.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah there are a lot of weak overcards that will call for one bet but not two. it's especially important if the PFR has AK to get outs hands like JT and QJ

sthief09

02-23-2005, 01:52 AM

if you believe no worse hand will bet the turn, then your check is terrible as logn as there is a chance (and there definitely is) that you have the best hand. you're probably right, which is a good reason to check raise the flop and lead the turn. you have a delicate hand and you're trying to walk on glass here, but you can't let that turn get checked through, which is will often if you don't think only a better hand bets.

and your hand is not primarily a moderate draw. you have a made hand which is often best. a 4 or 6 outer in a huge pot is NOT worth more than a made hand that might well be best.

chesspain

02-23-2005, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well played and I don't think it's close. Bad players aren't folding Ax on the flop, and any 2 broadway are correct to call anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's playing well when one fails to try to get bad players to make an incorrect fold when they are drawing very live.

sfer

02-23-2005, 01:55 AM

Good post. My thinking is changed.

WillMagic

02-23-2005, 04:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if you're not already behind to a bigger pocket pair, he at least has overcards. so therefore in order to clean up outs behind you, you need to be folding overcards that someone who has already put money into this pot doesn't already hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just not nearly as hard as you make it out to be - and it's not about "cleaning up outs." It's about giving people a chance to make a mistake. I mean...PFR could easily have AK/AQ. Are you seriously saying that a check-raise won't fold hands like QT, QJ, KT, KJ, etc at least some of the time? And if they don't fold, so what? What have you given up? Not much, actually. If, in fact, you do have the best hand, then you make more money by raising than by calling, even though they will have correct odds to call no matter what.

And really, so what if the PFR reraises you? It's a cheap street, and you'll be able to laydown your hand on the turn if you so desire, in which case it's better than just calling down to the end.

To repeat...You should forgo a chance to raise that can't protect your hand (i.e. your opponent must either fold or make an incorrect call) if you can make a raise that will protect your hand. But you can't protect your hand here at any point, so that fact shouldn't really be under consideration.

Check-raising does three things:

1) gives you value
2) gives your opponents a chance to make a bad fold
3) defines the PFR's hand.

What exactly does calling do?

Will

Elizabeth

02-23-2005, 08:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]

4. Protecting the hand on the flop is a consideration, but many posters greatly overestimate what can be done. If I am behind (50%+ behind someone IMO) then forcing people out is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect thinking because the pot is so big. It can be correct to raise if it increases your winning chances as little as 5 to 10%. Suppose you have 20% equity in a 20 SB pot = 4 SB. If you can increaes that to 25% equity for a raise, that's 5 SB. At 1 SB it's a wash.

If your raise can get a hand like QT to fold the flop, and you clean up just 1 of your outs, you still protected your hand against a 3 outer, which is in the 5-10% range. You're likely to clean up more than 1 out too. Jacks, Tens, and Queens are not strong overcard draws which I think ought to fold between 2 raisers. Not to mention if anyone has only 1 overcard, which at this table seems typical, it is totally right for them to fold for 2 SB and correct for them to call for 1.

You say you're behind 50% to a big pair. That leaves 50% of the pot that's up for grabs, which is plenty enough to spend 1 SB for a chance to protect it.