Tips for going from internet to live?

[gergery]

I've played NL online for a while now, and am giving my local casino a try -- what tips do you all have?

1. what are the 3 most important tells to try and watch for (I've leafed thru CAro's book, but some topline advice would be great)?

2. Where to you look, what do you do with your hands, how do you act when when you've just gone all in and someone is tanking on whether to call?

3. what are the 3 best pieces of advice you would give yourself if you had to start all over?

4. any particular method you use to keep track of how much is in the pot?

---Greg

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I've played NL online for a while now, and am giving my local casino a try -- what tips do you all have?

1. what are the 3 most important tells to try and watch for (I've leafed thru CAro's book, but some topline advice would be great)?

2. Where to you look, what do you do with your hands, how do you act when when you've just gone all in and someone is tanking on whether to call?

3. what are the 3 best pieces of advice you would give yourself if you had to start all over?

4. any particular method you use to keep track of how much is in the pot?

---Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

What game are you going to go play in?

I've probably played 50 or so hours in the Sunday night game at LC's. Send me a PM if you want to talk about it.

scrub

[scrub]

(1) This is something that's going to come with experience more than from applying stuff people tell you about.

(2) You're going to be awful at this at first. The less emotionally invested you are in the outcome of any given hand, the better you'll get at it. You're probably going to get all excited and feel self conscious when you're in a big pot the first few times you play, though. The more experience you get in a live poker environment, the more at home you'll feel.

3. Treat these sessions like lurking on a board before you start posting. Watch what's going on around you and listen more than you talk. Don't put yourself in tough spots the first few times you play--don't try to make all-star laydowns or bluffs, or to play hands that are a pain to play out of position, and don't play deep.

4. Pay enough attention to every hand that you always know how much is in there.

Good luck--live poker is a great time, and you won't regret going to play.

scrub

[PokerFink]

1. Don't bother. It's your first live game, just stick to sound poker. Watch more for how they play, not physical stuff.

2. If I'm bluffing, I visualize a monster in my head, and silently say those cards to myself over and over ("I have top set, I have top set, I have top set). If I have a monster, I picture a hand I would be bluffing with in my head and do the same. Try that. Also, don't clench up if you're bluffing.

3. ALWAYS play at a limit you and your bankroll are comfortable with.

4. Count it as it grows. Good thing to learn to do, eventually it will come naturally.

Goodluck and have fun!!!!

[RollaJ]

Tells.
#1 Look for Beer in front of players
#2 Look for the groups of friends just looking to have a good time
#3 Week means strong, look for bad acting
#4 Dont be afraid to raise
#5 Make sure you get your sign up bonus, and ask the floor if they have a rakeback deal

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
I've played NL online for a while now, and am giving my local casino a try -- what tips do you all have?

1. what are the 3 most important tells to try and watch for (I've leafed thru CAro's book, but some topline advice would be great)?

2. Where to you look, what do you do with your hands, how do you act when when you've just gone all in and someone is tanking on whether to call?

3. what are the 3 best pieces of advice you would give yourself if you had to start all over?

4. any particular method you use to keep track of how much is in the pot?

---Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

For #2, I'm going to try using my index fingers as drumsticks and keep "playing" while my opponent thinks..

[AllVegasPoker.com]

[ QUOTE ]
what tips do you all have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't forget to tip the dealers and cocktail waitresses. I only say this because it seems that quite a few of the internet-only players just aren't familiar with the customs in Vegas. I don't know where your local casino is, or what the customs are there. But, for first timers in Vegas, I think they should at least be aware of these customs (whether they choose to follow or not).

At low limit games, $1 per pot and $1 per drink is pretty much the industry average unless the pot is big, or the cocktail service is excellent.

(I'm not a dealer or a cocktail waitress ) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jordanx]

Don't worry about tells, as others has said, experience builds your ability to read tells and working at this w/o it could hurt you more than help you.

Besides, it's harder to follow the action in a live game, the table is bigger than a 17" monitor and sometimes you can't see other players cards or chips.

Get in the practice of doing the same thing w/ your hands, chips and expression every single hand. Make a habitual ritual and follow it when you see your hole cards, see the flop, turn and river regardless of the result.

To keep track of pot size, count the bets as they go in and keep a big bet count. Round down in the early rounds to account for rake. At first, you can use a stack of chips to keep track of big bets, just grab 10 or so in your hand and drop em as the bets go in. Quickly this will become second nature.

Just relax, have a drink and think about what's going on...

"Odd, the old tight guy raised pre-flop."
"Oh, mr LAG is raising me again, shocking."
"Sweet, I just turned two pair, should I check raise?"

[mike3076]

DO NOT BRING YOUR POKER TRACKER.
AND ALWAYS WEAR YOUR SUN GLASSES.
also- no multi- tabling.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Tips from internet to live...

1. Most internet players are jerks. Don't be one when playing live. Politeness and keeping the table friendly count very much when playing live.

2. Most internet players who come into live cardrooms are stiffs. Tip the friggin' dealers already.

3. protect your hand. keep a chip on your cards when you are waiting to act. don't let go of your cards at the showdown until they push you the money. if you don't follow these two rules, and you get your hand taken away, don't whine and bitch, because you have NO recourse.

4. play FAST. don't call for time when deciding whether 72o is worth calling two raises cold. Live play is slow enough without the extra high drama in the 2-4 games. Only in no limit is there ever any real reason to call time.

5. count bets in the pot, not money, in limit hold'em games. bets make it easy to keep track of pot odds. I don't even count money when I'm dealing, I count bets, and convert it to money later.

6. tells are few and far between when playing live. TELEGRAPHS are common and highly useful. pay more attention to what downstream players are probably going to do rather than trying to find some stupid facial tick that the bettor has when he's betting the nuts. although tells have some use, they are over rated and FAR over dramatized on TV.

7. the best way to avoid giving off tells of your own is to concentrate on always acting the same way during a hand, regardless of the strength of your hand. I always shuffle chips in the same manner while playing a hand, whether I'm betting the nuts or on a pure bluff. If I'm all-in, I sit quietly with my hands folded. If I was being chatty before, I continue to be chatty while all-in (don't go dead silent, particularly not if you are bluffing). Get into a routine of behavior patterns at the table.

al

[Cooling Heels]

A few things you will immediately notice:

- the live games are very slow

- an incredible amount of money leaves the table with high rakes and over tipping

- many of the players are drunk

- a mix of good, bad and in between players just like online, but some of the bad are really bad

good luck

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
Get into a routine of behavior patterns at the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the posts so far folks. I'm actually looking for specifics on what others do. I figure i'd try to establish a good habit to start with. I am probably mainly concerned with not giving off tells.

What routines specifically do all of you use?
-Do you look at your cards as soon as you get them?
-Do you put a chip on the cards, then play or muck as it gets to you, or do you hold them then toss them or put the chip as it gets to you?
-Hold hands in front of your face when betting big? Stare at the pot, stare at the opponent?

--Greg

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]

7. the best way to avoid giving off tells of your own is to concentrate on always acting the same way during a hand, regardless of the strength of your hand. I always shuffle chips in the same manner while playing a hand, whether I'm betting the nuts or on a pure bluff. If I'm all-in, I sit quietly with my hands folded. If I was being chatty before, I continue to be chatty while all-in (don't go dead silent, particularly not if you are bluffing). Get into a routine of behavior patterns at the table.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is, IMO, probably one of the most important among Al's solid recommendations. The more robotic your actions are, the better off you'll be. Some additional advice that falls into this category is:

-When you bet, throw chips out the same every time. Verbally declare your action every time, or not at all. For beginners, its probably best to say "raise" or "call," though, or you might get called for a string raise, which is when you bet some and then go back to your chips to try & bet more... this is not allowed -- so count your bet out before putting it in front of you.

-Cap your cards at the same point every time, and do not, do not fold or pick up your cards to fold before the action gets to you. Personally, I don't even look at them until its on me, I'm focusing on the other players as they bet/fold.

-Be 1000x sure you're truly protecting your cards so no other players can see them. You'll be surprised at how many players fail to do this, and occasionally cost themselves serious money by doing so.

-Don't show your hand if you lose a pot at a showdown. In fact, if you were caught bluffing or making a move, get it in the muck ASAP. Some casinos allow players to ask for a hand that had "equal action" (check-check or bet/call) on the river to be exposed even if the player folded it face down.

-Don't watch TV or whatever else is going on in the room when you're not in a hand. Watch the game. If you can't focus on the game full time, you're not getting full value. You'll pick information up that you'll want/need when you're in a tough situation later on. More importantly, you can watch TV at home when you're back from the Casino!!!

Beyond those tips, I strongly, strongly urge you not to play NL as your first live poker ever... sit and fold in 2/4 for a few hours first at a minimum to get a feel for the table dynamics & process. I immediately target players that sit down with the minimum buy-in, or appear to be disoriented as to how the process of live poker works. These guys are flat out advertising that they're inexperienced, and I'm more than happy to take advantage of it. Know how to tip, when to post blinds, what to do if you need more chips at the table, what to do when you have to go piss (leave your chips -- they'll be fine), and so on. These are not game specific, and are not strategic ideas, but just procedural things you need to know in order to be able to devote 100% of your mental effort on the actual poker play.

[MisterKing]

Also, you should definitely read this article (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue1/armstrong1.html) from the January 2005 2+2 Internet Magazine.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
-Don't show your hand if you lose a pot at a showdown. In fact, if you were caught bluffing or making a move, get it in the muck ASAP. Some casinos allow players to ask for a hand that had "equal action" (check-check or bet/call) on the river to be exposed even if the player folded it face down.

[/ QUOTE ]


What's up with this? If you go to a showdown and all players put up the same amaount on the river (or check), then all players have the right to see the other players hands right? When you want to see the other hands, but the players try to muck quickly, how do you get to see the cards - ask the player - or the dealer?

[lehighguy]

Know what a string bet is.
Know what hand protection means.
Know that when chips pass your cards that's a bet.

If confused ask dealer, will make you look like fish anyways.

Playing advice:
Play more hands, casino people are generally worse so you can get a lot more out of them when you hit.

Raise alot preflop. Apparently at 1/2 blinds raising to 15 will get you like 3 callers.

Watch people when your not in the hand. It becomes much easier to get much better reads much quicker then online.

[jkamowitz]

I play both online and in live games and the number one tip I can give is to understand that in a brick and morter game many people htere are not good players. Many have never played before and have just won big on the blackjacktable or whatnot. It is important to remember that to play online one must makea significant effort that is putting money online setting up an account etc. etc. but to play in a casino all you need to do is sit down. This drastically changes the stle of play and the consistency of players you will face in a live game versus a online. Good luck!

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Very nice additions to what I posted.

I don't look at my hand until it's my turn to act. That's good advice. Also, if you are going to chop the blinds, don't look at your hand AT ALL.

Getting your hand mucked quickly is also a good idea. A good dealer should take mucked hands right away and push them into the muck in such a manner as to make them unidentifiable (i.e. don't put them on top, slide them in and mix 'em in).

I also agree that a brand new casino player, even one who is good at the strategy of hold'em, should play limit first, not no limit, until they get the ettiquette and procedure down.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
If you go to a showdown and all players put up the same amaount on the river (or check), then all players have the right to see the other players hands right? When you want to see the other hands, but the players try to muck quickly, how do you get to see the cards - ask the player - or the dealer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all players have the right to see any and all called hands. However, that doesn't make it RIGHT for you to be asking to see them. If they want to fold, LET 'EM FOLD. Usually only the angle shooters and the jerks want to see all called hands anyway.

You must of course ask the DEALER not the players to see a called hand.

Muck 'em quick when you lose and the angle shooters won't be able to needle at you by asking to see your hand.

al

[burningyen]

Throwing out a big chip isn't a raise unless you first declare "raise".

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Throwing out a big chip isn't a raise unless you first declare "raise".

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true... I was playing 6/12 at Borgata this past weekend, playing exclusively with candycane stacks of alternating red/white chips and betting only these chips for hours. I had two greens on top of my stack that just sat there... but at one point I got lazy on the turn and threw out a green for a raise (from 12 to 24) but since I didn't declare "raise" verbally (having assumed people would know), I lost my right to do so and missed two bets from my calling station opponents.

Also, on the matter of raising in NL games, settle on a standard pre-flop raise and use it every time unless there is a major, major reason to deviate. In deeper 1-2 games, I tend to raise to $12 PF with any raising hand, though I will make it $20 or more after many limpers with a hand like JJ. Obviously, you should be situation-specific, but you gain valuable deception by always betting the same way and the same amount, whether you're stealing with 32o in late position or upping the pot for value with QQ.

Much has been made (I think in CardPlayer and 2+2 magazine) about the fact that the 3x BB raise is useless in low-stakes no limit games because it fails to fold anyone out. I tend to agree with those arguments, and use the 6BB raise. The key to doing this is being willing to fire a pot-sized bet or so on the flop even if you miss (assuming you think doing so will earn you the pot right then and there). If you're not prepared to do this, stick to a somewhat smaller PF raise.

[jhall23]

I'm going to Foxwoods this Saturday. I have been about 5 other times and every time I have played Limit poker. Online I typically only play SSNL (25 or 50 buy in) and this time I was planing on trying to sit in the 1/2 NL game there if the wait list isn't 5 hours long.

Online I typically raise my raising hands 4xBB + 1 per limper. It sounds like this might not work for the live NL games based on what you are saying. What do you think? I raise a good range of hands in postion so I don't really want to be rasing the trashier ones from LP to 6-10 BB. Do you think I should just tighten up my raising hands or is it rarely going to be limped to me anyway. I'll probably just have to adjust as I watch the game, but I'd like to have some sort of game plan going in.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
6. tells are few and far between when playing live. TELEGRAPHS are common and highly useful. pay more attention to what downstream players are probably going to do rather than trying to find some stupid facial tick that the bettor has when he's betting the nuts. although tells have some use, they are over rated and FAR over dramatized on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is excellent advice.

also, try to keep an eye on stack sizes. this will do two things. it's useful to know about how much everyone has who you don't cover (if you have 150, there's a little to be gained from knowing who has 500 and who has 900, but i'm content to just say "he covers me" and ignore it).

it also gets you in the practice of estimating chip stacks quickly so you can take a reasonable guess at the bad guy's stack during a hand.

and others have said it, but practice keeping track of the pot. it also helps you remember the action when you can't scroll up through the chat window.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
also, try to keep an eye on stack sizes. this will do two things. it's useful to know about how much everyone has who you don't cover (if you have 150, there's a little to be gained from knowing who has 500 and who has 900, but i'm content to just say "he covers me" and ignore it).

it also gets you in the practice of estimating chip stacks quickly so you can take a reasonable guess at the bad guy's stack during a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely. Playing a speculative hand (limping then calling a raise out of position) like T9s is great if you think you can get the guy's whole stack when you hit. That said, if his whole stack is only 3 or 4 times the raise you're calling, your implied odds are horrible. So knowing stack sizes can definitely affect pre-flop play among other things.

[burningyen]

6BB is probably a bit excessive unless you have a limper or two. 4-5BB seems to be enough in the 2/5 NL games. 3BB is too little unless you want action. 2BB will guarantee a family pot.

[xxxxx]

If you have a family pot, you'll obviously win less often but you'll make big money when you do. Are you really better off knocking everybody out with pocket aces?

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really better off knocking everybody out with pocket aces?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd imagine that if you had indeed established to you opponents what your "standard bet" is, then they will be more likely to call even a large standard like 6BB. This will be due to the fact that earlier in the session you probably did things like make the same raise and fold to a bet on the flop, make the raise and check the flop, and make the raise (from late position) and showdown a marginal hand that loses.

people with marginal hands can be lulled into a false sense of security against your aces if you don't give them a reason to back off. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[David04]

[ QUOTE ]

#5 Make sure you get your sign up bonus, and ask the floor if they have a rakeback deal

[/ QUOTE ]
nh

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]


it also gets you in the practice of estimating chip stacks quickly so you can take a reasonable guess at the bad guy's stack during a hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

Any good way to do this, other than just experience and eyeballing it?