Betting middle/bottom pairs on river, thanks Kiddo

[krishanleong]

I asked an earlier question about value betting ace high on the river and the consensus was its a rare occurence. Kiddo pointed out that knowing when to value bet with bottom pair or middle pair is much more valueable. I've since value bet bottom or middle pair 5 times in the last 1.5K hands. I think I'm getting better.

My request is for people to post hands where they thought a river value bet was appropriate and what they would do if they were check raised or raised. I'll post some of my own when I get back home.

Krishan

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

My request is for people to post hands where they thought a river value bet was appropriate and what they would do if they were check raised or raised. I'll post some of my own when I get back home.


[/ QUOTE ]

Opponent is a 2+2er [edit: a tight 2+2er who I don't think is likely to 3-bet me in this spot with a baby pocket pair].

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Schneids is Button with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Schneids calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[Schneids]

Opponent is 44/13 and too loose in all streets and probably thinks I'm too loose since I've been non-stop raising PF on this table (I'd estimate over 25% of hands, 6-handed)...

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Schneids is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Schneids calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

[captZEEbo1]

FWIW, both of those schneids hands seem standard to me
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

also, in terms of getting c/r, I'm not too sure, but I think I'd probably call all river c/r's, but not be happy about the first case (with flush draw hitting).

[wheelz]

This guy was loose-passive and giving me 0 respect.

10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I would've called a raise. Even though he played passively I had seen him bluff raise already.

[krishanleong]

Looks good! So in this hand you feel it's likely that the 2+2er has Ace high because he 3-bet your steal. Would you have folded to a turn cr?

Krishan

[krishanleong]

I would be more hesitant in this hand than in the first. Are you putting villian on a hand? Can we assume he has a hand you beat like a small pocket pair or a weak ace? I think it's reasonable for him to have tt, qq, or a jack. I'm assuming his range of calling hands is wider than I'm giving credit for. I'd probably check this through.

Is this hand thinner than the first at least? Thanks for helping me get better in this spot.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

Looks great! A board of nearly all babies against a preflop 3-bettor. I would definitely cr the flop here. What are the disadvantages?

It seems like a common thread between these hands is it involves a preflop 3-bettor. My experience in full ring games was that a 3-bet meant a pair 60% and a big ace 40%. Can you give a rough estimate of the breakdown at shorthand tables?

Maybe the breakdown is the same and you were planning to fold to agression on an expensive street. Maybe these are the 40% hands? Thanks,

Krishan