Playing to tight?

[cleinen]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1000)
Button (t775)
Hero (t700)
BB (t715)
UTG (t755)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t630)
MP1 (t1130)
MP2 (t755)
MP3 (t740)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t82.50) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t115</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: t197.50

[willperkins]

If I am getting 12 to 1 pot odds, I will call with any two card, especially when it is costing me less than 1% of my stack. Maybe I'll get lucky and flop trips.

[holeplug]

Yeah, you can call with any two usually on level 1 from the SB.

[cleinen]

i imagine the trick is then to fold without 2 pair or trips.

[Insty]

No, good fold. T5o is rubbish.

[lorinda]

Why on Earth would you consider calling with these two cards?

You might not even be ahead on the flop.

Lori

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
You might not even be ahead on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've noticed that when I complete the 5 chip SB in level 1 and hit the flop with something other than the nuts, I often lose with hands that I shouldn't of been playing in the first place. Examples are trips with poor kicker (like this example), bottom straight (only to lose to the nut straight), and so on.

I've occasionally hit the flop really hard. My 23o flopped quad 3's, but I couldn't get any action as is often the case with monster flops.

Recently, I've tightenned up in the SB during level 1. Instead of playing any 2, I play suited broadway cards, suited connectors 78-AK, and any pocket pair. I'm going to play with these standards for a while, but I'm considering trying to be even tighter in the SB.

The last consideration is that even if you do get a somewhat favourable flop (like trips with 5 kicker), you are still out of position. The SB can be a tough spot to play.

Thoughts?

[TruFloridaGator]

Yeah, ive flopped some nice hands when completing in L1 just to get rocked by a higher 2 pair or other hands like you say. I tightened up mine as well, similar to your standards. It's working well, haven't taken a hard hit lately.

Although I just got rocked by flopping 2 pair in the BB /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
You might not even be ahead on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I had no idea you were such a pessimist. Come on, cheer up. Flopping trips is a GOOD thing.

I like the K on the flop too. I would really look forward to doubling up on someone with Kx.

I'm not sure if I'd rather have T5 with a KTT flop, or get AA pre-flop. It's close. Yes, I could lose my whole stack in either case, but I like my chances to double up.

I'm more of an optimist, so I favor Adanthar's opinion in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=1767106 &amp;Forum=f22&amp;Words=%2Bcrime&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Ma in=1765766&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=&amp;dateran ge=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;b odyprev=#Post1767106).

ps - I call with any 2 in the SB here. The implied odds are too good.

[curtains]

I think its okay to call for 5 chips with any 2, especially if you are playing bad opponents, because when you do hit a lucky flop you can often get paid off by inferior hands.
I fold a lot of the time in the $200 sit and gos, but I know I'd be a little more likely to call in lower buyins.

[poboys]

The pot odds are tempting. But, what would you have to hit in order to play on. For me, I'd have to hit trip T's or trip 5's to continue.

There are 282 flops that have TTx or 55x in them. That's a whopping 1.439% of the flops <font color="#666666">(2*c(3,2)*c(47,1))/c(50,3)</font>. So, you have to average about T342 in order for this play to be EV. <font color="#666666">(5*(1-0.01439))/(0.01439)</font>.

Now that figure (you're expected win) must take into consideration when flop trips and lose, and you must have the dicipline to fold anything but the above flops.

Personally, I like seeing flops for T5 if I have a semi coordinated hand. If my minimum requirement is flopping trips, then I gotta muck 'em, but that's just me.

[curtains]

Im usually quite satisfied with a T53 flop.

[se2schul]

I like Poboys' analysis. It helps to put things in perspective.

[curtains]

No offense but its flat out wrong to say that the only flops youll continue with are if you hit trips. Id rather the flop be T52 than JTT. Using his assumption, I can't really give too much credit to the math involved

[poboys]

Then you'd like the flop 3.367% of the time (any two pair or better) and need to win on average T143 . Obviously, playing two pair on the flop would significantly increase the variance of your post-flop plays. To me less than top-two pair is one of those way ahead, way behind scenarios that I try to avoid early in the tourny.

[curtains]

Well If the flop is T65 ,thats not top two, but you have a very strong hand in a low limit sit and go. Also sometimes the flop will get checked around when you have one pair, and youll hit a good turn card. There are a lot of good things that can happen that arent at all included in your math.
That being said, folding preflop is completely fine and most likely the preferable play.

[poboys]

What is your definition of wrong? -EV?

I was stating what I would do, not telling the poster what to do.

Well, I posted what you'd have to expect to win, if you flop two pair or better as a follow up to your reply. Again, I am not telling you what to do, but what I chose to do when I play. I am just trying to provide some context around what you have to net in order for these plays to be +EV (chip).

[curtains]

I made my post before reading your follow up.

[curtains]

My wording was bad, I meant that it's wrong to play that way. I'm pretty sure you wouldnt check and fold a flop of T52 anyway, but maybe Im wrong!

[poboys]

The reason why I calc'ed the breakeven win is to not have to take into consideration the (subjectively) good and (subjectively) bad things that would have to happen.

The point is to provide a perspective of what you'd have to net on average from this play for it to be TEV over the long haul, and to not get into what-ifs (of a single observation).

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]

No offense but its flat out wrong to say that the only flops youll continue with are if you hit trips. Id rather the flop be T52 than JTT. Using his assumption, I can't really give too much credit to the math involved

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said one way is right and the other way is wrong. I said that I've noticed getting favourable flops (but not the nuts) in the SB with hands that I ordinarily wouldn't play. I used to play any-2, now I'm trying tighter calling standards. I certainly don't think that one way is wrong. I may even go back to calling any two. This is just something I'm trying...

Something to think about...
Would you call 15 with JTs UTG (or even in MP) in level 1? It will win 71% of the time against 27o, which you'd call in the SB for 33% of the price and much worse position.

If I had more confidence and skills postflop, I'm pretty sure that I'd play any 2 from the SB and a wide range from the button. I'm still learning, so I'm leaning on the weak/tight side early before lots of aggression later.

[curtains]

You dont have to play any 2 from the SB. I generally fold JTs early position.

[se2schul]

Oh, and I know why this argument is flawed and why it's not fair to compare those 2 situations. I just wanted to point out that despite calling 27o from the SB, you'd fold a much better hand even though it's also cheap, better position and more potential to be the winning hand.

[curtains]

from the SB its much cheaper, and the chance of being raised is extremely small