Check raised on the turn - fold?

[sudic]

Should you almost always fold if someone check raises you on the Turn?

Here's a couple of hands.

Hand 1)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $2. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 (poster) checks, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB


Hand 2)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB


Thanks for the help!

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

Should you almost always fold if someone check raises you on the Turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.


Hand 1 I'd 3-bet, hand 2 probably play it the same absent a read.

[JackWilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Should you almost always fold if someone check raises you on the Turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good lord no.

Hand 1: Old ladies fold to this check-raise. Real men reraise. The KQ straight is worrisome but your hand is very strong.

Hand 2: At just a quick glance it looks fine.

EDIT: Damn, guess we think alike eh? brettbrettr said everything I wanted to say and he was 1 minute faster than me too.

[billyjex]

I call down more than I fold from turn C/R.

You do realize you have top two pair in hand #1, right?

[krishanleong]

Hand 1 you should be 3-betting the turn.

Hand 2 calling down is fine.

Krishan

[sudic]

Yes!
I know.
But what if your read tells you that its a pretty strong player?

[SparkyDog]

I think I'd rather raise the river in position on hand one. I think you'll get 4 bets max from lower two pairs anyways, and you'll put in five bets less often against sets and straights if you raise the river as opposed to three-betting the turn.

[JackWilson]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd rather raise the river in position on hand one. I think you'll get 4 bets max from lower two pairs anyways, and you'll put in five bets less often against sets and straights if you raise the river as opposed to three-betting the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying.

Are the rare times when you improve to a full house on the river against a set or straight a legitimate reason to rather opt for the turn?

I'd like to hear more comments on this.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd rather raise the river in position on hand one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad because a diamond flush draw will pay on the turn and not the river.

Krishan

[SparkyDog]

Oh, bull. The whole turn check-raise semi-bluff a picked up flush draw is not used often by typical 2/4 players. The turn C/R almost always means your against a lower two pair, or you're in deep [censored] against a set.

[brettbrettr]

Agreed, and you should make the lower two pair pay.

[krishanleong]

Doesn't everyone make the lower two pair pay? We are debating a turn 3-bet vrs a river raise.

Krishan

[JackWilson]

What about one pair hands that just picked up a flush draw? Think that's more likely? Also what do you think about the value of your 4-outer to the near nuts being another (marginal) reason for raising the turn instead of the river? If he's got a set or straight (not so much so with the straight) you can maximise your winnings here.

[SparkyDog]

I try not to 3bet the turn on a 4 out draw. it's expensive.

Bottom line, you can 3bet and most often the action with two pair hands will go call down for a grand total of 4 bets. But then they have straights and sets you're a lot more likely to put in 5 bets as a loser than when you raise the river, still collecting 4 bets from the two pair hands but limiting your exposure to better hands.

when I made my comment about the C/R semi-bluff, that's what I referring to. Will he fold one pair for a raise in a big frickin pot? chances are no. So raising the river collects 4 from him also.

[SparkyDog]

I do. I still get 4 BB's in.

[JackWilson]

[ QUOTE ]
I try not to 3bet the turn on a 4 out draw. it's expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. You're only on a 4-out draw a small percentage of the time.

[SparkyDog]

Well, I disagree on that to begin with, I think hero is behind fairly often. But that's actually irrelevant, and here's why:

If I can stop better hands from 3-betting and collect the same amount from lesser hands, why shouldn't I take that line?

It boils down to this...
1) Will lesser two pairs cap the turn and lead the river? My analysis is no.
2) Will sets and straights sometimes not 3-bet a river raise? My analysis is yes.

It's just manipulation of your opponent to put less bets in when he's ahead and the most he will when he's behind. Do you really think you're going to get 5 bets out of your opponent with lesser two pair regardless of what line you take? I don't think so. I think you may get better hands to stop at four bets though.

[Nate tha' Great]

I don't know if a reraise is prudent in hand 1.

Plausible two-pair hands:

AT 6 combos
JT dumb slowplay 6 combos
A5 6 combos
(AJ ties you, so we'll just ignore it)

= 18

Sets/Straigths

55 3
JJ 1
TT 3
KQ 16

= 23

Call down, don't raise unless you have a read on the opponent as being able to make this play with one-pair or worse.

It's not a bad idea to play these hands cautiously when there's a plausible made straight out there, since the cards required to complete the straight aren't duplicated by the board and are therefore more likely to be in villian's hand.

[Perseus]

[ QUOTE ]

Call down, don't raise unless you have a read on the opponent as being able to make this play with one-pair or worse.

It's not a bad idea to play these hands cautiously when there's a plausible made straight out there, since the cards required to complete the straight aren't duplicated by the board and are therefore more likely to be in villian's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first instinct was to three-bet, but after 3 seconds I decided I would have called. I would have done just that...thought about it for three seconds and called down for the same reasons Nate posted.

So, hand one call down with no read in a party 2/4 game. Don't fold.

[krishanleong]

I think Ax raises the turn here often enough to swing it slightly. But I agree it's close.

Krishan

[sudic]

In the first hand, Villain showed [Qd, Ks] to win with a straight.

In the second and, Villain showed {Td, 8d] to win with a straight.