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L0QTiS
02-21-2005, 09:27 PM
Extending from the earlier "A2" post got me to thinking. A recent downswing has caused me to review my play and hand selection and I've come to the conclusion that I may be playing too many A3 hands.

So, I'd like to collectively query the group and see what folks have to say about the variations of this hand and it's playability under game conditions.

Some examples of these hands...

AA3X
A3sXX
A3TT
A34X
A35X

T = Tencard from T-K
s = suited

I'm focusing on the weaker A3 hands here, but feel free to comment on what you think. I'm particularly interested in what you see as completely unplayable and under what circumstances (loose games vs. tight, early position vs middle or late, etc). Feel free to comment as you see fit citing whatever examples you feel appropriate.

Focus is low limit .5/1 to 2/4 LIMIT Omaha hi/lo so the games are primarily loose passive to loose aggressive with rare spats of tighter aggressive 2/4 or 3/6 games.

Yads
02-22-2005, 12:13 PM
most A3 hands that aren't suited to the ace should be folded. The only exception is something like AA3x, A3KK, A3QQ. I'd only play those for a small bet with lots of people in, or if I can open from middle position and get it heads up or 3 handed.

chaos
02-22-2005, 01:39 PM
The object of any split pot game is to scoop the pot. The most common ways to scoop the pot are to make a high hand when no one has a low, to make the best low hand and a flush, and to make the best low hand and a straight.

Besides their low potential, the hands you listed have some high potential:
AA3x can make a set of Aces (or occasionally win with just the pair of Aces)
A3sxx can make a nut flush
A3TT can make a large straight or a big set if TT is a pair
A34x and A35x can make a wheel or a 6-high straight

I think all of these hands are probably playable in a loose game for a single bet. If there is a raise you would like the odd x card to complement the rest of your hand. 7s, 8s and 9s are the worst cards in Omaha/8. Holding these cards may make it better to fold to a raise and wait for a more coordinated hand. You have to consider the player who raised. If he is a rock who will only raise with a strong A2 type hand, like AA2 or A23, it may be better to fold.

Some numbers:

If you hold a hand with A3 and two high cards, you will flop a nut low draw (that is, a deuce and at least one other low card that is not an Ace or a 3) about 14% of the time.

In a ten-handed game, at least one of your opponents will be dealt A2 just over half the time. If you hold the same A3 and two high cards and one of your opponents holds A2, you will flop a nut low draw about 10% of the time.

djr
02-22-2005, 04:21 PM
this is where Yads and I disagree. In the typical low limit O8 game (5+ seeing the flop on average) I will limp several of A3xx hands in mid-late position (obviously you must play tighter the worse your position). Hands like A3KJ (with no suits or with the A or K suited) are hands that should see a flop, you have ways of flopping either a nut high or a nut low draw (or both). A34x and A35x are another that I like, several flops that give you the nut low draw also give you a straight draw. I don't advocate seeing any A3xx hand, but there are several that are worth it.

Who knows, maybe now I have PT for omaha I'll notice these hands are a big leak in my game. But I can't see it being wrong seeing a flop with these guys.

Beavis68
02-22-2005, 04:21 PM
If you go by Hutchinson point system.

20 is the minimum playable hand.

To get A3 to 20 you need
A34 - 23
A35 - 21
A3BB - 20 Two other broadway cards
A3s - 21
A3KK - 25
A3QQ - 24
A3JJ - 21

Looks pretty close to what you have. I am beginning to think that hands aren't worth playing until they get closer to 22-23 points.

gergery
02-22-2005, 04:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The object of any split pot game is to scoop the pot. The most common ways to scoop the pot are to make a high hand when no one has a low, to make the best low hand and a flush, and to make the best low hand and a straight.


[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree with Chaos’ excellent post.

I’ll build by saying that that the object of any poker game is to win money, not pots – and in order of profitability, the above would read 1) best low with flush, 2) best low with straight, 3) best high. Usually if the pot is big or getting jammed, you want the flush to win high outright, and if you just have a straight its likely to be split for high if the pot’s been jammd. And most often there aren’t enough good high hands out to jam when the pot is high only unless its been preflop.

Also, if the pot is really being jammed, then you often have someone with your same nut low, and a set vs. wrap, or set vs. flushdraw for high. So it really helps to have redraws so when a card is counterfeited or the board improves, you can still play. And the best way to have redraws is to play hands that coordinate. (ie A347 when 2 5 is on the board so when the 3 comes to counterfeit you win low, or then if a 6 hits you can redraw for high.)

--Greg