Blind Defense gets owned. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 08:16 PM

anything I can do about this?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
7 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 08:29 PM

Fold preflop. Other than that, looks good. I hate when I'm playing top pair and second card pairs.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 08:30 PM

Folding preflop to a typical range of starting hands is not good here.

Danenania

02-21-2005, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
anything I can do about this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Perfectly played.

Fnord

02-21-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking, right? Easy 3-bet unless the button is a multi-table rock who almost never bothers to steal (a couple players come to mind...)

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 08:32 PM

Well anyway he had aces.

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 08:33 PM

If you got some reads on the button blind steals, you could be right. Being as this is $3-$6, I won't invest five bucks to save one.

Willluck

02-21-2005, 08:35 PM

I like folding PF you are at least a 3 to 2 dog to Ax. but if you wanted to play it, then just call PF. Everything else looks good maybe just a call on the turn when you got raised would be better.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 08:37 PM

Eh, I'm a lot more inclined to believe Fnord and Danen than either of you. AX is not the only requirement to steal.

LinusKS

02-21-2005, 08:38 PM

So what the hell did he have?

He just called your 3-bet, but then raised you on the turn - implying the six improved him.

But if he had J6 the river 8 would have counterfeited his second pair.

Did he have 66?

n/m.

AA is just bad luck. I think you played it fine.

Fnord

02-21-2005, 08:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like folding PF you are at least a 3 to 2 dog to Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

o Putting on Ax, KQ, AA-22 is too tight for most players in that game. Even if they are that tight, the 3-bet might set-up a win without showdown.
o 3-betting often puts in dead money from the BB.
o Many players will play a naked Ace (or less) like the nuts post-flop in this situation.

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 08:39 PM

Asked and ansnwerred. He had pocket aces. Sounds like a sound ante steal to me. Let the freaking buck go.

RollingRockMike

02-21-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
anything I can do about this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can and should fold preflop. Who cares if he 'stole' your 1/6th BB? Your hand is poor at best and certianly not strong enough to play a rag flop. I wish PT had a way of keeping track of money lost in blind defense, I suspect most people would be surprised.

Mike

Fnord

02-21-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can and should fold preflop. Who cares if he 'stole' your 1/6th BB? Your hand is poor at best and certianly not strong enough to play a rag flop. I wish PT had a way of keeping track of money lost in blind defense, I suspect most people would be surprised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does Nate wanna chime in here and kick this guy's ass?

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Asked and ansnwerred. He had pocket aces. Sounds like a sound ante steal to me. Let the freaking buck go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without seeing the results, you are completely wrong here.

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 08:45 PM

I gave my play before seeing results.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can and should fold preflop. Who cares if he 'stole' your 1/6th BB? Your hand is poor at best and certianly not strong enough to play a rag flop. I wish PT had a way of keeping track of money lost in blind defense, I suspect most people would be surprised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does Nate wanna chime in here and kick this guy's ass?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope so, Nate's post inspired me to do things like this.

RED_RAIN

02-21-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you got some reads on the button blind steals, you could be right. Being as this is $3-$6, I won't invest five bucks to save one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being you mention money even the sign $, seems that either this is higher than your limit, or you are weak in the blinds. This is textbook 3 bet from a steal. As most 3/6 folded around turn to potential steals enough, you should be 3 betting here.

Evan

02-21-2005, 08:47 PM

Anyone suggesting a preflop fold is being kind of stupid. This isn't an issue of "spending $5 to save $1" as someone said. KJ is way ahead of the range of hands that the button could open raise.

SomethingClever

02-21-2005, 08:49 PM

What about just calling preflop and checkraising the flop?

I think that'd be my first instinct for some reason.

Fnord

02-21-2005, 08:50 PM

Hands like this make me want to defend...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
7 folds, SB raises, Fnord calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB 3-bets, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Ac 7d (one pair, sevens).
Fnord has 9s 7h (two pair, nines and sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 11 BB.

marching_on_together

02-21-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anything I can do about this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can and should fold preflop. Who cares if he 'stole' your 1/6th BB? Your hand is poor at best and certianly not strong enough to play a rag flop. I wish PT had a way of keeping track of money lost in blind defense, I suspect most people would be surprised.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

can i play you please, i'm going to pay my blinds by stealing yours. KJ against a button likely steal raise even with the 3/6 blind structure is a hand you have to defend otherwise your going to be taken to the cleaners by good players. In the BB i might call in the sb i like 3 betting to clear out the BB.

Shillx

02-21-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like folding PF you are at least a 3 to 2 dog to Ax. but if you wanted to play it, then just call PF. Everything else looks good maybe just a call on the turn when you got raised would be better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just calling preflop is about the worst possible thing I can think of. Do we really want to be playing this one 3-way OOP?

Brad

brettbrettr

02-21-2005, 08:52 PM

People are more apt to fold when you 3-bet them pre-flop. I'm not sure you can count on connecting on the flop hence, I like the pre-flop raise.

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone suggesting a preflop fold is being kind of stupid. This isn't an issue of "spending $5 to save $1" as someone said. KJ is way ahead of the range of hands that the button could open raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can be way ahead and still in trouble because you are out of position. What do you do if the flop is Qxx? You check, he bets. Do you call him down all the way to the showdown? Lot of freaking grief over one freaking buck.

Willluck

02-21-2005, 08:57 PM

sorry about that I misread the line, I thought he was in the BB.

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hands like this make me want to defend...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
7 folds, SB raises, Fnord calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB 3-bets, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Ac 7d (one pair, sevens).
Fnord has 9s 7h (two pair, nines and sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 11 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I love making two pair on the turn too. Maybe I should play any two cards since they all have equal chance of making two pair.

Say on an indifferent flop you bet. You only get calls on hands that have you beat. Let it go. Wait until you're the button and steal someone else's blind.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 08:59 PM

He was beating him before the turn, ya moron.

marching_on_together

02-21-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone suggesting a preflop fold is being kind of stupid. This isn't an issue of "spending $5 to save $1" as someone said. KJ is way ahead of the range of hands that the button could open raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can be way ahead and still in trouble because you are out of position. What do you do if the flop is Qxx? You check, he bets. Do you call him down all the way to the showdown? Lot of freaking grief over one freaking buck.

[/ QUOTE ]

you bet, fairly often he will fold if he doesn't you have to play poker. The thing is it's not just one freaking buck. often you will win this unimproved on the turn by being the aggressor.

Evan

02-21-2005, 09:09 PM

I wouldn't even look at the board until the river unless he raised at some point.

RollingRockMike

02-21-2005, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

can i play you please, i'm going to pay my blinds by stealing yours. KJ against a button likely steal raise even with the 3/6 blind structure is a hand you have to defend otherwise your going to be taken to the cleaners by good players. In the BB i might call in the sb i like 3 betting to clear out the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play mostly 2/4, in which case I'm going to stand by my assertion that defending here would be ridiculous.

I have a lot less hands at 3/6, but if blind stealing is exponentially more common than 2/4, defend away. Otherwise, I'm not defending with such a weak offering unless there's habitual stealing.

Mike

zimmer879

02-21-2005, 09:11 PM

Although I think 3 betting is best here, the fact that it is a 1/3 blind structure is more significant than people are giving it credit for. I wouldn't be defending this sb with a hand much worse hand than KJo.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 09:13 PM

Actually it would be more correct to defend at 2/4 given the blind structure.

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't even look at the board until the river unless he raised at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to look at your hand either. Just three bet pre-flop and bet out the flop and he'll fold.

If anyone is interested, I play B&M $3-$6 all the time, but if we don't average five people to the flop, I'll find another table.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If anyone is interested, I play B&M $3-$6 all the time,

[/ QUOTE ]

This explains much.

LoaferGee12

02-21-2005, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone suggesting a preflop fold is being kind of stupid. This isn't an issue of "spending $5 to save $1" as someone said. KJ is way ahead of the range of hands that the button could open raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can be way ahead and still in trouble because you are out of position. What do you do if the flop is Qxx? You check, he bets. Do you call him down all the way to the showdown? Lot of freaking grief over one freaking buck.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet out. After 3-betting preflop you have put your opponent on the defensive. Unless he connects with the flop he will most likely fold to your bet. "Lot of freaking grief over one freaking bet". That is beside the point. If you fold this you are missing out on a +EV situation.

Fnord

02-21-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I love making two pair on the turn too. Maybe I should play any two cards since they all have equal chance of making two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm.. he got in 1sb with the best hand, I got in 9. With 1sb already in the + position I'm defending here with any two cards that aren't hopeless.

Evan

02-21-2005, 09:19 PM

Seriously, how about some feedback from other guys. If you 3 bet a button open raise is there any flop you're not betting? Any turn?

I am not sure what you mean by "I play B&M $3-$6 all the time."

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I am not sure what you mean by "I play B&M $3-$6 all the time."

[/ QUOTE ]

I play every week. I sign up for $2-$4 and $3-$6. If i don't like the table, I'll move to the other limit.

RollingRockMike

02-21-2005, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually it would be more correct to defend at 2/4 given the blind structure.

[/ QUOTE ]
More correct if you're taking the short-sighted view of blind structure. But in practice, if you feel obligated to defend your SB in 2/4, you need to move tables. It may be significantly different in 3/6, but it's not been my experience.

Mike

Fnord

02-21-2005, 09:22 PM

All this being said, there are handful of players that 4,6,8 or god-know-how-many table playing such tight poker I would lay KJ from the SB down. Like YoYoPiggy, Maynard46n2 and EricStoner8.

Evan

02-21-2005, 09:22 PM

Okay, I guess I did understand then. What does that mean in the context of this thread? Probably everyone that has posted anything in this thread plays or has played 3/6.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 09:25 PM

I'm quite sure YoYoPiggy would lay down kings.

zimmer879

02-21-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, how about some feedback from other guys. If you 3 bet a button open raise is there any flop you're not betting? Any turn?

I bet the flop nearly 100% of the time. The turn action is entirely dependent on the board and the opponent.

SparkyDog

02-21-2005, 09:34 PM

After he raises the turn you can be fairly sure you're behind, but still have to see showdown. Well played IMO... I was thinking he had AJ or 2 pair myself, but an overpair makes sense too.

People saying to not three-bet suck at blind defense. KJ is a great hand here.

BusterStacks

02-21-2005, 09:39 PM

Cool thanks, blind defense/stealing is my biggest leak.

krishanleong

02-21-2005, 09:54 PM

Unless you have a read that villian is a maniac, drop it on the turn.

Krishan

JackWilson

02-21-2005, 09:58 PM

Buster:

I like it. Seems fairly standard.

By the way, pay no attention to people saying you should call, that is obviously the worst possible play here.

I'm sure you're aware of this but just be careful who you're restealing against, thinking about PFR% esp since blind steal stats are usually too random with smaller sample sizes.

Ian J

02-21-2005, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, how about some feedback from other guys. If you 3 bet a button open raise is there any flop you're not betting? Any turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Evan, it's so obvious that you and Buster and everyone else agreeing with Buster playing this way is right that you should just stop with this thread. And yes, 3 bet, bet the flop, bet the turn if he just calls the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure what you mean by "I play B&M $3-$6 all the time."

[/ QUOTE ]

The man was simply stating his credentials, leave him alone. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

xxxxx

02-21-2005, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Being you mention money even the sign $, seems that either this is higher than your limit, or you are weak in the blinds. This is textbook 3 bet from a steal. As most 3/6 folded around turn to potential steals enough, you should be 3 betting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the risk of reopenning this thread, someone did question whether I played $3-$6. The answer is yes, but I like to play a lot of calling stations so I could be a little light on steal/steal defense.

The situation does come up, and I donate my buck and make it up on other hands.

damaniac

02-21-2005, 11:18 PM

And if you mostly play 3/6 at B&M's, this is probably not doing much to hurt your winrate. However, online at 3/6 it is slightly more important. But I think the more important point is that most of the people here want to improve their game, maybe to continually move up to higher limits, to earn more money, or just for the sake of improving their game. For those of us who fit that description, a hand like this is one that is +EV to defend with, if done properly. So if you are content to give up some EV (and not just your blind either, when someone steal raises with Jx or Kx or whatever you are ahead of, you are missing out on a lot more money), that's fine, but the correct play EVwise is most definetly to defend hands like these.

2000Flushes

02-21-2005, 11:38 PM

I honestly disagree with the people who like this play, but it's for a different reason.

It seems that noone is really mentioning what type of player the Button is. How many times has he tried to steal raise. What types of hands does he show when he raises, especially when he steal raises.

My preferred line here is if it's rare for him to steal raise I let it go, but I bank the information and perhaps if I let him get away with it before I'll defend in the future after trying to put it into his mind that I don't defend and hopefully lowering his hand criteria for a steal raise.

So basicly I'm saying I want more information about how the Button plays, if I don't have it then I fold and try to use that fold to my advantage later on.

RED_RAIN

02-22-2005, 12:09 AM

I can tell you in a 3:1 blind such as 3/6...I give up the SB pretty easily, which I don't think is a big mistake if one at all.

Elizabeth

02-22-2005, 08:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]

He just called your 3-bet, but then raised you on the turn - implying the six improved him.

But if he had J6 the river 8 would have counterfeited his second pair.

Did he have 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen the results, but when I face a raise on a card that shouldn't have helped, I read that as a wait-for-the-turn raise. Remember that Hero 3 bet preflop, and 3 bet the flop. This turn raise is probably not a bluff.

sthief09

02-22-2005, 08:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone suggesting a preflop fold is being kind of stupid. This isn't an issue of "spending $5 to save $1" as someone said. KJ is way ahead of the range of hands that the button could open raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

a fold is reasonable at 3/6. I wouldn't do it, but it's reasonable. you're out of position with a hand that could easily be behind. with a 1/3 structure you can afford to be very tight, and the button should also be raising tight. it's also not "way" ahead of the range of hands that a typical 3/6 player would have. as I said, I'd call it. but I don't think at 3/6 it would be a terrible thing to fold there.

Elizabeth

02-22-2005, 08:38 AM

I like the stop and go in these kinds of situations, especially out of position. When you pound the pot out of position, you tend to lose the most when behind and win the least when ahead. There's no shame in playing rope a dope with top pair good kicker either; when top pair is kings (or aces) and future cards are not that dangerous.

But once you 3 bet preflop, and 3 bet the flop, yes, you did get the most value against the range of hands you opponent will play, but you also basically told your opponent your hand.

I'm not saying your play is bad, I'm just giving an alternative line

sthief09

02-22-2005, 08:42 AM

nice hand. he owned you with his aces or kings or whatever. nothing you can do

partygirluk

02-22-2005, 08:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anything I can do about this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you can and should fold preflop. Who cares if he 'stole' your 1/6th BB? Your hand is poor at best and certianly not strong enough to play a rag flop. I wish PT had a way of keeping track of money lost in blind defense, I suspect most people would be surprised.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

You and xxx need to read 1) in This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=1735223&page =1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1) post. Failing the 3 bet here against a typical Party 3/6 player is a crime against poker. You could easily have the opponent dominated, and if he does have Ax, 3 betting preflop and betting the flop is lot of pressure for him to cope with. If he has a hand like 77-99, and the flop comes down Axx, he will likewise often make an incorrect fold.

spydog

02-22-2005, 09:04 AM

Buster -

I'm pretty aggressive out of the blinds at 3/6, but this hand is on the low end of defendable from the SB. The blind structure makes this a borderline play. I need to know that the PFR can fold to one flop bet if he misses in order to make this play. I'd much rather 3-bet any PP or Ace in this situation.

Against an unknown Button and BB (you didn't post reads), this is probably going into the muck.

RED_RAIN

02-22-2005, 10:29 AM

One thing you gotta think about not only the 3:1 structure, is you also against the rake at this level.

xxxxx

02-22-2005, 12:17 PM

What with Elizabeth and Partygirl? I thought we had a no grrls policy in the club? Does that mean I can't leer at the cocktail waitresses any more?

Clarkmeister

02-22-2005, 12:31 PM

Don't you feel like you lost a wee bit too much on this one?

xxxxx

02-22-2005, 12:34 PM

Well Partyladyuk, I think its the people 3-betting preflop who are emotionally attached to that one chip and the folks advocating a fold who realize the chip isn't ours anymore once we fulfill our small blind requirement.

You aren't stealing my one chip and I don't care if I have to eventually put in 5 BB to defend 1/6 of a BB.

partygirluk

02-22-2005, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well Partyladyuk, I think its the people 3-betting preflop who are emotionally attached to that one chip and the folks advocating a fold who realize the chip isn't ours anymore once we fulfill our small blind requirement.

You aren't stealing my one chip and I don't care if I have to eventually put in 5 BB to defend 1/6 of a BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just don't understand.

LaggyLou

02-22-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone suggesting a preflop fold is being kind of stupid. This isn't an issue of "spending $5 to save $1" as someone said. KJ is way ahead of the range of hands that the button could open raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really true? KJo has about 52.5% equity against AA-22, Ax, Kx, Qxs, QJ-Q9o, JT-J9, T9, and the remaining suited connectors down to 54s.

If we assume the button is a little tighter -- i.e., we eliminte K8o-K2o, J9o, T9o, Q7s-Q2s, and suited connectors below T9s, then KJ has about 47.4% equity.

Sure, there are some players that will raise from the button with essentially any 2, and then you are way ahead. And even in my scenario 2 you have the dead money from the BB making up for any equity deficiency preflop. But there is the small matter of being out of position, and that does make a fold against those players that seldom steal a reasonable play.

ErrantNight

02-22-2005, 04:34 PM

you haven't played very much 2/4.

ErrantNight

02-22-2005, 04:36 PM

what about those 6 chips homeboy just tossed in that you should belong to YOU, and those three other chips to your left? and all those chips on the flop and turn that you're going to earn?

let me guess... you wouldn't be raising KJo on the button here either, would you? or many, many, many worse holdings? right?

Evan

02-22-2005, 05:04 PM

Your range is too narrow.

xxxxx

02-22-2005, 05:07 PM

I have stated my opinion. Other people have stated theirs. You have 50% equity but have to risk more chips than you gain because you are out of position. The button can fold/call/raise after you have taken your action.

The dead money of the BB is just the house rake. And it isn't dead money yet.

If you have a read on the button that he will steal with any two, that's different. If you have a read on the button that he will fold to aggression that is different. But we have no reads in this problem.

BusterStacks

02-22-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you feel like you lost a wee bit too much on this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I do, which is why I posted it. I can see both sides of the issue, but I think that the only legitimate argument would be for folding pre-flop, which is not where most of the money was lost. If it were a 50/50 decision between 3-bet and folding, I would err on the side of 3-betting simply because in the games I plan on moving up to, 3-betting is going to become more correct.

J.R.

02-22-2005, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but I think that the only legitimate argument would be for folding pre-flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

legitamite arguments can be made for folding the river as well.

sfer

02-22-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lot of freaking grief over one freaking buck.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're understating the pot by a freaking order of magnitude.

RollingRockMike

02-22-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You and xxx need to read 1) in This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=1735223&page =1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1) post. Failing the 3 bet here against a typical Party 3/6 player is a crime against poker. You could easily have the opponent dominated, and if he does have Ax, 3 betting preflop and betting the flop is lot of pressure for him to cope with. If he has a hand like 77-99, and the flop comes down Axx, he will likewise often make an incorrect fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand how to play against blind stealers, I just don't do it because a) it's not folding to the button and b) most of those I play against don't care enough about $3 to bother raising w/o a real hand. Blind defense is so irrelevant at my tables that, as far as I can tell, SSH doesn't even mention it. If it's folding to the button, get the hell out of this game.

Mike

RollingRockMike

02-22-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you haven't played very much 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only 50K hands in PT and probably another 100K before I bought it. I'm only defending here against someone with a history of stealing, and then I'm finding a new table when the button goes around again.

Mike

Elizabeth

02-22-2005, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Is this really true? KJo has about 52.5% equity against AA-22, Ax, Kx, Qxs, QJ-Q9o, JT-J9, T9, and the remaining suited connectors down to 54s.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is only correct if both hands are seeing the river for a fixed amount each time. You've neglected the fact that KJ gets to affect how much money is in the pot based on the cards that fall, and KJ can fold on particularly bad flops.

In other words, you're neglected implied odds and the speculative nature of calling hoping for a good situation.

Elizabeth

02-22-2005, 08:31 PM

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Yes, I do, which is why I posted it. I can see both sides of the issue, but I think that the only legitimate argument would be for folding pre-flop, which is not where most of the money was lost.

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No, it's fine to consider alternative plays on other streets. If you think that all the decisions are bad preflop, then you're wrong ... especially in a headsup blind steal situation. IMO this is a great trapping situation where instead you pounded away.

First, you are not obligated to keep betting and raising top pair, keep get raised, and still call it down. Consider ways you can save bets and gain information and maybe you can come up with something. Your line of play has no finesse, it's "bet and raise until he tells you that you are beat and then call him down anyway". This kind of play loses the most when you're behind and it only makes your opponent fold bad hands.

Second, a hand like KJ pairing the king is mediocre, as cannot beat most legitimate hands but can beat most marginal hands. You could have considered ways to induce those marginal hands to bet instead of looking for ways to make them fold.

Third, (really another way to put #2), is that you do want to showdown this hand, yet you won't get your opponent to fold hands that can beat you. This means that the wider the range your opponent shows down, the more your EV.

Fourth, against some opponents who are not sophisticated, you can consider folding the turn here. This is a wait til the turn to raise play because he knew you were going to bet. If your opponent isn't capable of raising with position here, and he is moderately tight, you can consider folding here.

So, I am telling you that there are other plays to consider besides giving up preflop. I just think people have to take their "raise! raise! raise!" goggles off to consider it.

GuyOnTilt

02-22-2005, 08:33 PM

It hasn't been said yet, so I'll say it. I don't think you're call here PF with 97o in this game is correct. I've been loosening up quite a bit in similar spots from the blinds in the last month or so, but these types of hands I still stay away from. In your blind structure and high relative rake, I really don't see this being a good defense.

GoT

xxxxx

02-22-2005, 08:38 PM

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This is only correct if both hands are seeing the river for a fixed amount each time. You've neglected the fact that KJ gets to affect how much money is in the pot based on the cards that fall, and KJ can fold on particularly bad flops.

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You play blackjack Liz? The only advantage the house has in BJ is that it gets to go last. Sure you can dump the hand if the flop misses you. Maybe the flop missed the button too and he was about to dump it. Do you understand the value of the button having position?

If you have some reason to believe you can outplay the button postflop that's a factor, but we are given no reads.

Evan

02-22-2005, 08:40 PM

I don't think blind structure has anything to do w/ it unless you assume the SB is adjusting his play to the 1/3 structure, which is unlikely if he is unknown.

But I agree w/ folding thee 97o.

BusterStacks

02-22-2005, 08:42 PM

Wow, Elizabeth, good post. I had not even considered inducing worse hands to bet. I do wonder why would consider pairing the K with KJ to be mediocre. In a short-handed situation, this figured to be a very nice holding, doesn't it? Also, if I follow your advice and presumably get a worse hand to bet at me on the turn, I raise, then get 3-bet by his AA, then I am losing the same amount as my current line, yet giving him one less opportunity to fold. Do you see what I am saying? Do you feel this is incorrect thinking?

Elizabeth

02-22-2005, 08:52 PM

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You play blackjack Liz? The only advantage the house has in BJ is that it gets to go last. Sure you can dump the hand if the flop misses you. Maybe the flop missed the button too and he was about to dump it. Do you understand the value of the button having position?

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But just because you're out of position is no excuse to see the river, and that's what your percentages are. The chances of KJ vs. other hands with 5 cards to come is not enough to make a EV decision. EV is probablity times value; Probability times pot size.

It should be obvious that you'll spend more on pots that you are more likely to win, because you will bet when you have a good hand. And when you have a bad hand, on average you will bet and call less.

Not giving up and trying to steal on the flop when you're out of position has nothing to do what I'm talking about.

xxxxx

02-22-2005, 09:13 PM

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But just because you're out of position is no excuse to see the river

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And some of those hands you don't see the river, the button wouldn't have called a bet. But you have to act first.

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It should be obvious that you'll spend more on pots that you are more likely to win, because you will bet when you have a good hand. And when you have a bad hand, on average you will bet and call less.

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In order to make money, it isn't enough to make a bet. It has to be called. It should be obvious that this statement is true for the button as well. He'll bet more with a good hand.

I realize poker is a complicated game and there are lots of moves you can make postflop. But the button can also make moves. And he can watch what you do before deciding to act.

Elizabeth

02-22-2005, 09:29 PM

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Wow, Elizabeth, good post. I had not even considered inducing worse hands to bet. I do wonder why would consider pairing the K with KJ to be mediocre. In a short-handed situation, this figured to be a very nice holding, doesn't it?

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Thank you. (I didn't see that you flopped the J, I thought it was the K. But let's continue as if you flopped the King). Kings with a Jack is a good hand headsup in the sense that it beats most of your opponents hands on the flop. It beats bluffs and thin value bets. However, does it beat most hands on the river after you 3 bet it? When betting, you don't just need to consider whether or not you're a favorite, you need to consider if you're a favorite *when you're called*.

Put yourself in villian's shoes. Flop comes K83 rainbow. SB bets, you raise, and SB 3 bets. What hands do you think SB has? Do you call if you had eights? Maybe you take off 1 card and fold on the turn?

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Also, if I follow your advice and presumably get a worse hand to bet at me on the turn, I raise, then get 3-bet by his AA, then I am losing the same amount as my current line, yet giving him one less opportunity to fold. Do you see what I am saying? Do you feel this is incorrect thinking?

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He won't fold the aces headsup, so giving him that opportunity doesn't matter. In fact, I don't think he'll fold any hand that beats you -- that's the sense in which KJ is marginal. It's one of the worst hands that headsup needs to see the show down.

I prefer to bet the turn and not c/r. First, I don't want to give a free card, and I don't want to encourage flop raises by checking top pair after being raised. Second, a c/r will cause a 3 or a 5 outer to fold which he is slightly correct to do. So I'm encouraging him to make the right decision, risking a free card, and just to gain one BB while offering 2:1. I think there's a more profitable opportunity to just bet out. If I bet out then it's a clear fold for him with middle pair or an ace, but he's more likely to make the wrong decision in that situation. (Again consider if you're holding eights on that board. You raised the flop and you're bet into on the turn. Do you call? Aren't you more likely to call than if you are checkraised?) Plus, if he is willing to make a semi bluff raise on the turn, I want to give him that opportunity because he actually has 0 bluff equity here as I'm not folding. I can do that if I bet, but not if I c/r.