Poker Etiquette and putting people on tilt

[jkamowitz]

I just returned from a 60 hour session at foxwoods casino playing 10-20 for the entire time. Strangely enough I only played at 3 tables but at each table I got into the same argument. People were getting mad at me because I was purposely putting people on tilt.
Ex. Hand 1.
Hero is mp3 and open raises with 88
Button, an older man who was frustrated three bets
everyone folds hero calls
flop 10 2 10
hero checks
button bets
hero calls
turn 8
hero checks button betes
hero raises button calls
river A hero bets button calls and says "jack"
I turn over my full house and win and say "i thought i was ahead on the flop"

and he went off steaming! saying that was a rude thing to say and whatnot. we got into an argument that i was not there to make friends and that he was upset that I read him correctly.

The younger players seemed to side with me while the older men just got more and more upset and often would leave my table and go to another one.

ex. 2
I cold called a typical players raise with 4h5h and after a flop of 6h7d8h i won a decent pot from an older man.
He said "what?? why'd you call with 45??"
I responded "to put you on tilt"
and he got more upset.

ex. 3
After beating a man in a pot he remarked "it's not good to take advantage of people when they're down."
and i replied "well when's a good time to take advantage of them then" and he called me an a!!hole and threatened to slug me.

I guess I am an a!!hole at the table but I can't understand why it is a bad idea to be putting people on tilt. To me there's nothing better than an entire table out to get me calling bets with marginal hands only to crack me. But time and time again people were condemning me. Any thoughts?

[bones]

If you're gonna cold-call with 45, feel free to come to my table and put me on tilt.

[chesspain]

Hands 1 & 2: There really is no reason to say anything--just take your chips. Unless you want to see how being a dick can break up a perfectly profitable table.

Hand 3: Now that was funny--and I would've called over the floor if you think anyone else heard him threaten you.

[onegymrat]

Hi J,

I'm glad you had favorable results as far as the hands are concerned, however, I've never agreed with the term "put players on tilt." I've always maintained that weak players allow themselves to "tilt", and is just a small byproduct of your loose play.

If that's your style to irritate people after raking a pot and it gives you pleasure, by all means, do it. After all, this is still a game, and you should fully enjoy every aspect of it. But Chesspain said it well when he mentioned that doing so will drive out your profits. So think about what is more important to you. Good luck.

[JackWilson]

I'm all for using whatever psychological approach to gain an edge in a game. If you feel you gain this edge by being "rude" to players and putting them on tilt, I think you should exploit it.

I don't think anything you did could be considered "crossing the line."

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm all for using whatever psychological approach to gain an edge in a game. If you feel you gain this edge by being "rude" to players and putting them on tilt, I think you should exploit it.

I don't think anything you did could be considered "crossing the line."

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is this carries the real-world risk of something called "getting punched in the face."

Half-jokes aside, there are other issues that make being a rude ass at a poker table -EV. Most players there are just looking to enjoy themselves -- gamble it up, take down some random pots, and oogle the waitstaff while they get sloshed. Doing things to piss these people off ususally results in having them get up and leave. Even if they don't leave, typically if you kill the light atmosphere, everyone tends to tighten up, which makes your life harder.

I'm all for extracting every edge you can in a game, but being a jerk does not get it done.

-K

[jkamowitz]

Thanks one, i have had many responses and yours is the one that made the most sense to me. Clearly and I have noticed the stronger players do not tilt as much as the weaker ones. and because of this I have not been as affective towardsd them and in turn gain respect for them. I appreciate your comments and good luck to you as well.

[jimymat]

get a clue. honestly.

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
the older men just got more and more upset and often would leave my table and go to another one.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your goal is to piss people off, then you've succeeded. If your goal is to get more of their money by pissing them off, you've failed. If you run them off you can't get their money.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
People were getting mad at me because I was purposely putting people on tilt.


[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif Is'nt that the whole point of the exercise /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Kripke]

While I realise it may be in your interest (though I think not) to put people on tilt, I still think this is a pathetic type of angle-shooting and in general bad for the game. The games are probably plenty beatable without being a dick and if they aren't, find another game. Even though you might be there to make money, others are probably there to enjoy themselves. Other than ruining their fun by taking their money, I see no further reason to insult people and get them ticked off.

As a sidenote, I find that games become much more profitable, when everyone at the table is laughing it up enjoying themselves and thinking you're a really nice guy. But maybe that's just me.

- Kripke

[DoubleClutch]

I'm going to be honest. Sometimes I mess around with this idea on the PP $100Nl games and it seems to work well. Which i'm sure has to do with the fact that people don't get scared in the online games.

However, in a live game, I can't see this tactic working (plus I don't have the balls). But, I guess it seemed to work for you. Whatever.

Oh, Jimy, you spelled "you're" wrong. Get a clue.

[jkamowitz]

haha thanks for pointing that out i didnt' want to be an a!!hole and tell jimmy that myself

[steamboatin]

Short term, you are making some extra money but if this is your regular cardroom, you are losing money in the long term.

The fish will get up and leave when you sit down or they will tighten up and play better against you. Either way, you win less in the long run.

so you need to ask, "why do I play poker?"

If you play for money and are looking at the long term, this is a mistake.

If you derive satisfaction from putting people on tilt and making them angry, then this is +EV and go for it.

[flair1239]

Yes, you are an [censored]. Just let people play their games and pay attention to your own play.

Many people put way too much stock into psychological manipulation. While I agree there may be some value in this, for expert players. The majority of people would be better served by putting that same effort into improving their game. Also usually these players do tend to be in the 18-25 range, and where baseball caps and sunglasses.

I wish the guy would have hit you.

[BUD]

steamboatin hit the nail on the head.

[toots]

Yeah, I can see the beauty in just recreationally pissing people off. Really. Probably stems from my being a pedantic mysanthropic douchebag.

That does sound like fun. Especially getting poker players pissed off. Seems like most of them don't need much help to get there, but a little tap and shove here and there couldn't hurt.

But yeah, it does hurt your earnings potential if that's what you're there for. Were I there to make money, I'd prolly have to swallow my extreme hatred for humanity and make nice to them.

(Not that I can ever resist responding to the angry suck-out-ee with the comment "Yeah, I'd really be pissed if I were you.")

[SenecaJim]

I absolutely believe your " beadicktheory " is -ev. I am there to make money. I am managing to win right now even though i'm short on experience. My big wins have come at tables where 9 or 10 see the flop if it's not 7 or 8. Everybody is having a goodtime and keep throwing it out there cause it's fun.

I love poker, and to be honest, I like seeing some old retiree's playing poker and havig fun. I am making money off them even with the incredible suck out losses this invariably brings. I am always pleasant if i'm not quiet.

However, I am well known as an instigator and needler, I think it's fun. It was the way I was raised and to me it just meant I was loved. So at the poker table I save it for guys who are acting like a dick. I figure they deserve it, I can take anything they want to dish back, and it endears me to the fun players for messin' with the jerk who is hurting their fun. It's kinda like the old Chi Chi thing. You are needling someone and the rest of the table is on your side while you are doing it to the guy, NOW that can and has put a guy on tilt. So bring that kinda game to my table and I'm gonna step in to keep you from running off my +ev buddies.

[brokedickrooster]

I'm at Foxwoods playing the 1/2 no limit and have run my stack up to about $450 in 6 hours. I get KK, 20 to me, I make it 50, he calls. Flop is JJ8, I'm no happy, but he checks to me, I bet 100, he calls, and I'm sure at this point he has the J. Turn is a K and now I don't care that he has a J. He checks again and I put in another 100 and he calls. River is a blank and he checks again. I push in my last 200 and he calls. He asks me "Do you have a Jack?" I say "nope, K's full" he says "oh, I have quad Jacks".

I didn't get pissed, just got out another 100 and started over. Left with a decent profit about 4 hours later. No big deal. If another players wise ass comments can put you on tilt, you need to find another way to make $.

[Mayhap]

Gimme a break, you've missed the last three PMD meetings and I heard tell you were singin' in the choir last Sunday.
/M

[SenecaJim]

exactly. I don't think the ones getting pissed are the ones there to make money , it's the ones who want to have fun giving you their money.

[MEbenhoe]

Your post makes it quite obvious you are not a good player. Figure out why and you're on your way to getting better.

[jimymat]

Thank you. This kids got no shot. Thank god for shows like tilt so people think youre suppose to talk trash all the time.

[KidPokerX]

remove

[Hillbilly Cat]

Hi,

I was just browsing the site and I noticed your post. I read some of the responses, and I guess its fair to say that in general people were critical or dismissive of the idea of 'needling' as a tactical weapon.

It brought a wry smile to my face.

It seems to me that those who object to this behaviour are probably the most likely to be affected by it. A quality player is either going to filter it out, or better still turn it to his advantage. Dealing with a player who 'needles' is as much of a challenge as playing a 'friendly', surely.

Personally, I like it if there's a bit of 'aggro' (an English term) going on, whether I'm giving it or taking it. Here's why:
1) It tends to liven up the game (and lets face it poker can be dull for long periods).

2) Its often funny to watch, and I like a good laugh.

3) It often reveals things about a player and his personality.

4) It sets some people on tilt, and after all, profit is profit..

5) I didn't take up poker as a substitute for chess. Without personalities (good or bad) its a dull dull game.

Now, thats not to say that any old aggro will do.

As an Englishman I can tell you that well timed banter is a cultural phenomenon. In my experience Americans (and I guess a lot of folks here are) whilst being quite direct, are also quite put out when string words are bandied about. In England we call it pub talk ;).

Anyone who just mouths off is a fool. Timing is the key element.

I suspect many people here aren't familiar with cricket. (its a bit like complex, highly skilled baseball). Anyway, in cricket we have a word for this; its called 'sledging'.

A favoured tactic, particularly of the Australians who in my opinion deserve a gold medal for it, is to upset the batsman with a well timed put down... of course the right response is not to get angry, not to rant about abusive players, not to go on tilt... but come back with something better.

Here's a couple of my favourites.

Daryll Cullinan & Shane Warne:
As Cullinan was on his way to the wicket, Warne told him he had been waiting 2 years for another chance to humiliate him. "Looks like you spent it eating," Cullinan retorted.

Glenn McGrath & Eddo Brandes:
After Brandes played & missed at a McGrath delivery, the Aussie bowler politely enquired: "Oi, Brandes, why are you so fat?" "Cos every time I f**k your wife she gives me a biscuit," Brandes replied.

Rod Marsh & Ian Botham:
When Botham took guard in an Ashes match, Marsh welcomed him to the wicket with the immortal words: "So how's your wife & my kids?"

Well, perhaps some of the humour is lost in transalation... but you get the idea.

'Sledging' is not unique to cricket and in fact I think its fair to say it goes on in every sport.

Does Monica Seles really need to grunt?
Does Roy Keane really need to shout at the ref *every* time?
Does McEnroe really need to throw a tantrum?

And yet all these people are sporting superstars.

Poker is a sport. Play it like a sportsman.

Just my tuppence worth.

[Kripke]

'Does Monica Seles really need to grunt?
Does Roy Keane really need to shout at the ref *every* time?
Does McEnroe really need to throw a tantrum?

And yet all these people are sporting superstars.

Poker is a sport. Play it like a sportsman.'

Oh please - stop with the retarded one liners and bad analogies. This has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. Bottom line is, in the end, this kind of behaviour will be -EV, and you shouldn't do it for that reason alone. Unless of course you want to 'play like a sportsman' and be a poker 'superstar' ...

...

- Kripke

[Hillbilly Cat]

[ QUOTE ]
'Does Monica Seles really need to grunt?
Does Roy Keane really need to shout at the ref *every* time?
Does McEnroe really need to throw a tantrum?

And yet all these people are sporting superstars.

Poker is a sport. Play it like a sportsman.'

Oh please - stop with the retarded one liners and bad analogies. This has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. Bottom line is, in the end, this kind of behaviour will be -EV, and you shouldn't do it for that reason alone. Unless of course you want to 'play like a sportsman' and be a poker 'superstar' ...

...

- Kripke

[/ QUOTE ]

Please accept my apologies. I didn't mean to offer any 'retarded' anything.

The question seemed to be about whether needling, or showmanship, or winding someone up was a legitimate part of the game.

My opinion was that of course it was, but there's a right and wrong way to do it.

All I was trying to say was that it is an element of virtually all other competitive games, and therefore why not poker. And also that it can be done in the right spirit i.e. in the pursuit of competition.

Once again, apologies if this upset you.

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
Gimme a break, you've missed the last three PMD meetings and I heard tell you were singin' in the choir last Sunday.
/M

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I'm such a PMD, that I don't have to do the meetings anymore. I scoff at the other PMDs.

[wontons]

It's all part of the game...However if someone flopped quad jacks against me and asked if I had a jack at showdown wow...I have great will power at the poker table but thats just like wow u have a 10% chance of hitting your set..u get crazy lucky by not only flopping 2 jacks but also by the turn smiling down at you for laying down the K...i dont think you have to do anything to put the other person on tilt with those turn of events.

[Mayhap]

Well, you are down with the 'P' brother.
/M

[jimymat]

A lot of people buzz through the forums pretty fast and dont worry to much about proper pronunciation. Coming on here with six posts and making comments about things you dont know is a great way to start out. Check this sentance for errors. You're a fuc king idiot. Good luck and thanks.

[jimymat]

You're a joke. Look at you're response.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
All I was trying to say was that it is an element of virtually all other competitive games

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason the analogy breaks down is that in poker not all the participants are there for a competitive challenge. In all of your examples the participants were all highly skilled athletes striving for the same goal; victory. In this sense needling a player to put them on tilt makes sense.

In the poker world we do not want to put the bad players off their game. Rather we want to encourage them to continue playing badly. We want to congratulate them on every idiotic play. We want them to play this way. Insulting them for bad play runs the risk of either losing that player, they're not having fun and decide to leave, or they tighten up. Why in the world do we want to risk loose players tightening up or leaving?

Now needling good players who are there to make money may be profitable if we can put them off their game. However if it changing the mood of the recreational players I would not recomment it.

[Derek in NYC]

Needling works with some players, not with others. I am a trash talker online, probably one of the worst out there. If I can get somebody to engage me in trash talk, and I find his play loosening up, I drop a note and try to use it to my advantage in all future encounters. If I throw out a few choice words and nobody takes me up on it, I stop with the needling.

[Hillbilly Cat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All I was trying to say was that it is an element of virtually all other competitive games

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason the analogy breaks down is that in poker not all the participants are there for a competitive challenge. In all of your examples the participants were all highly skilled athletes striving for the same goal; victory. In this sense needling a player to put them on tilt makes sense.

In the poker world we do not want to put the bad players off their game. Rather we want to encourage them to continue playing badly. We want to congratulate them on every idiotic play. We want them to play this way. Insulting them for bad play runs the risk of either losing that player, they're not having fun and decide to leave, or they tighten up. Why in the world do we want to risk loose players tightening up or leaving?

Now needling good players who are there to make money may be profitable if we can put them off their game. However if it changing the mood of the recreational players I would not recomment it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I very much agree with you. Its a question, possibly, of when is the right time and when it is not.

I agree. Whats the point of needling a bad player. You already have an edge and you want to preserve that.

But, if your opponent has a large edge over you, then perhaps the circumstances change. It may also be related to the kind of poker your playing. Tournaments, by the very nature of their knock-out format means they *are* competitive. There may be occasions (albeit rare) when a well timed comment turns it for you.

How about a more subtle example. Does this qualify as needling? Suppose you're heads up after the flop and betting a draw (NL). You know the player you're up against and so you decide that the bet may be worth it here (even if the implied odds say it isn't) because you know a bad beat of this sort will set that player on tilt and have him throw in another few thousand.

This is a play thats been mentioned in few books I've come across. Obviously its risky, and requires you know you're opponent well, but, the merits of the play aside, does this not qualify as 'gamesmanship' or 'needling'?

Ok its not verbal, but the intention was the same.

Ok, after the dust clears the guy gets mad about a bad beat and starts tilting. What is the difference between that and giving a bad beat through bad play, but then making some comment implying you did it deliberately?

If that causes the guy to blow more cash also, are there many people here who are going to complain about being the benficiary?

Also, my understanding is that the rules in the States are different from over here. In the casino near me they don't allow table talk during hands, and they are quite strict about conduct in general. I've only played in the States once on holiday, and the rules there seem very different. If this is not an acceptable part of poker then why permit it at all?

I should point out that I remain relatively neutral about this. I'm not an advocate (alright, maybe the devils), but for me its just another interesting facet of the game.

On my trip to Vegas last year I was at a small stakes table where there was a lot of (mainly drunken) needling and such like going on. None of it was outright rude or aggressive, but its was 'competitive' lets say. I had a thoroughly enjoyable time and found it added some spice to the game and was for the most part quite entertaining to watch.

Some guy decided to needle me after I'd turned a few good hands and we both had a great deal of fun competing intensely from that point on... no harm done, far from it.

Alright, perhaps I may have felt differently had I lost, but I don't think so.. perhaps I'm just thicker-skinned.. answers on a postcard please /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just another thought to throw into the mix, perhaps there's a cultural element to this. In England I think this kind of banter, needling, whatever you call it is quite common in all walks of life, not just poker. Perhaps this is not so in the States? I wouldn't know, can anyone comment?

Perhaps thats why table talk is permitted less over here? Maybe we'd take it too far. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I have a couple of French friends who I play with socially from time to time and I can assure you their gamesmanship-factor is very high. From amateur dramatics to cutting put downs. But is all in good faith, and its only part of the game. No one takes it home with them.

Perhaps then it comes down to why people play poker. I'm not trying to derive a living from it. The money is my measure of success (or rather one day it might be /images/graemlins/wink.gif, but not my motivation for playing. I have a good job and don't need poker for that purpose. Therefore perhaps that changes my perspective on how the game is played. I'm probably happier playing with people with a bit of spark, or competitiveness or whatever you want to call it. I enjoy a tussle.

So maybe its all just about personal preference. Perhaps a table should be allowed to decide whether it permits table talk on a case by case basis (agreement of the players).

In fact isn't that exactly what the internet offers you. You can simply turn off the chat for any player who you don't wish to hear from?

And finally the idea that any of this will 'drive out the good ones' seems a little pessimistic to me. Ok, it may some I suppose, but it will equally attract others (with equally fishy qualities) and with the Poker/Internet explosion there are so many new players around I find it hard to believe its difficult to find a good game.

Anyway, my apologies if I've offended anyone, not my intention. But I think this element of the game is minor, but nonetheless interesting.

[revots33]

Trash talk is counterproductive I think. I've seen many fishy tables break up because of one annoying trash-talker who thought he could put everyone on tilt.

Trash-talk a bad player and he might up and leave. Trash-talk a good player and it won't bother him anyway.

TT is highly overrated I think. It's also kind of juvenile and obnoxious, IMO. Poker is a social game, but many people take it as a license to act in a rude antisocial way they never normally would apart from poker.

Most of the top pros (with a few exceptions) seem to adhere to a code of conduct of good sportsmanship that respects their opponents. I don't see much trash talking from Negraneau, Cloutier, Juanda, etc.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Short term, you are making some extra money but if this is your regular cardroom, you are losing money in the long term.

The fish will get up and leave when you sit down or they will tighten up and play better against you. Either way, you win less in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

I must agree here, at least with part II of this statement. Being a jerk just to put people on tilt will ultimately cost you money. I believe being well liked at the table is one key way to make extra profit, and the extra tilt you might get out of players by your being a jerk won't make up the difference.

On part I, cold calling with 45 in a non-multiway pot just to put someone on tilt (IF you actually manage to beat them) can't really be helping ANY of your profit, short term or long.

For my part, I tend to only TRY to tilt someone if they are being a jerk, if they aren't, I think I get more out of them in the long run by remaining well liked.

If the OP is consistently having players dislike him, he's absolutely losing money, and should try being a nicer at the table, it's more profitable that way.

al

[Derek in NYC]

I have never played him personally, of course, but my understanding is that John Juanda in fact is quite a needler. Maybe not Tony G, Mike Matusow, etc., but not the quiet stoic guy that the WPT clips seem to show.

[toots]

All of this makes me consider the role of being a jerk. I mean, it comes in many forms:

1) Someone who acts the part of a jerk because they perceive there's some profit in it (putting people on tilt)

2) Someone who's constitutionally incapable of being anything but a jerk, but who feels the need to rationalize their jerkitude by attempting to excuse their jerkisms.

2a) The subset of the above are the people who're natural jerks, know they're jerks, don't want to be jerks, try not to be jerks, but completely fail and end up being jerks anyway. Truly tragic figures.

3) People who are jerks recreationally, mainly for the entertainment value (Andy Kaufman comes to mind).

It's really hard to say which category this topic falls it, 'cause it's conceivable that any could apply. Someone could indeed be a jerk to try to put people on tilt. Or, someone could be a jerk, then try to rationalize it with "I meant to do that to put him on tilt." Or, there's the recreational "Hah! I piss in your Wheaties!", which becomes a sort of meta-jerkiness by coming here to recreationally jerk chains and see people react.

I hope I'm in category 3, although many have maintained that I'm just a 2a. Well, my mother always told me to stick to my strengths.

[Mayhap]

[ QUOTE ]
jerkitude

[/ QUOTE ] ...
Awesome!

/M

[golFUR]

What are you asking for? New comments to tilt people?

It works for you, you are good at it, I don't see the issue. Keep trash talking, keep putting them out of their game and bring us the best stories.

Bottom line, you play poker to make money. If it isn't against the rules, and it makes you money, use it.