20/40 at the Taj - I suck

[TheBusiness]

10 handed 20/40 game at the Taj in Atlantic City. Two or three pretty good players who I recognize, the rest average TAG players with the exception of one middle-aged Asian guy. He seems to be a regular, but he also seems to have lots of money to burn and plays WAY too loose. Plays 90% of his hands preflop, and sometimes raises rags for no apparent reason.

Asian guy is UTG and raises. Folded to me on the button with Ac10c. I three-bet, blinds fold, he caps, I call. Flop is Qc 6h 3c. He checks, I bet, he checkraises, I three bet, he calls. Turn: 4s. He checks, I bet, he checkraises again, I call. River: 9h. He bets out, I fold.

1) Was it stupid to expose myself to another checkraise on the turn when I could have let it go through to see if the flush hit?
2) Did I make a mistake not calling w/ Ace high here on the river?

Results to follow.

[Baloosh]

I'd check the turn, after being CR on the flop. You bought a free card after raising his CR -- use it.

[tpir90036]

Hard to say without a better read on his post-flop play. Capping pre-flop and then checking the flop does not seem like a standard play.... any insight into his range of hands at this point?

If you are going to check the turn after 3-betting the flop I think you need to call no matter what hits on the river since you opened yourself up to a bluff by basically announcing that you have a draw.

Manaics pick up hands too sometimes though... after the PF cap and double check-raise it is hard to think that you are still ahead here. If you want to make a stand with Ace high I would just play small ball with him on this one.

[BigSkiRace]

I would think your thinking on 3 betting the flop would be to get a free turn card, if you hit you could bet if not check it and get a free river card. If you weren't thinking like that on the flop there was no reason for you to 3 bet the flop. As for calling with Ace high I would might call with Ace high against a LAG.

[TheBusiness]

[ QUOTE ]
Hard to say without a better read on his post-flop play. Capping pre-flop and then checking the flop does not seem like a standard play.... any insight into his range of hands at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, his play makes it so hard to get a read. Usually when he does this he either has complete rags or a high pocket pair. The problem is that if he has rags, he probably has hit at least a pair by the turn, and if he has a high pocket pair I am way behind.


[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to check the turn after 3-betting the flop I think you need to call no matter what hits on the river since you opened yourself up to a bluff by basically announcing that you have a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. That is why I bet the turn. But I wonder if against this particular guy it makes more sense to check the turn and still check/call the river if I miss the flush.

[ QUOTE ]
Manaics pick up hands too sometimes though... after the PF cap and double check-raise it is hard to think that you are still ahead here. If you want to make a stand with Ace high I would just play small ball with him on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I was betting the flush draw and also hoping I could get him to fold a small pair if he did in fact play rags. I guess my question is: given the way I did choose to play it, is it worth it to call the river with ace high anyway since the pot is sizeable?

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that if he has rags, he probably has hit at least a pair by the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not so sure about that logic. Yeah, he might have paired up... but again, this is hard to know though without more of a read on his post-flop play since different flavors of manaics respond differently to aggression after the flop. Some slow down when they hit a tiny piece and just try to show it down/suck out... others continue to fire...

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my question is: given the way I did choose to play it, is it worth it to call the river with ace high anyway since the pot is sizeable?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well... you are getting around 13:1 to call the river. Given the opponent and the action thus far do you think you are good here over 7% of the time? Obviously it is impossible to know the exact percentage... but if you think he plays his rags that fast after the flop even when they miss then I am probably calling.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

after he calls your flop 3-bet of his checkraise, theres virtually zero chance that he'll ever fold to any turn card. so yes, you may have the best hand still, but you may also just as likely be behind against a hand that will never fold and you may expose yourself to a turn checkraise. you'd be doing yourself a favor if you checked the turn here and re-evaulated the river.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
with the exception of one middle-aged Asian guy. He seems to be a regular, but he also seems to have lots of money to burn and plays WAY too loose. Plays 90% of his hands preflop, and sometimes raises rags for no apparent reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

You left out "likes to cocktail and talk a lot". That guy puts the A in awful and it sucks losing a hand to him. Although, even a broken clock is right twice day.

[legend42]

It sounds like he probably has a hand here. But if you fold, be ready for the TAGs to take some shots at you.

There's really no point in going to war with a maniac when you have a draw. Wait until you make your hand, and then start splashing. And don't worry about announcing your hand- deception is worthless against maniacs- take your free card on the turn.

You might even have considered checking behind on the flop, and just calling down from there unless your flush or an A hits. That gets you a showdown for 2 BBs- whereas your line costs you 5.5 BBs to have him show you Q7 or some other winning junk.

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]

There's really no point in going to war with a maniac when you have a draw. Wait until you make your hand, and then start splashing.

[/ QUOTE ]


Took the words right out of my mouth

[TheBusiness]

When I muck my ace high, he turns over KJ offsuit. Pure bluff. I was ahead the whole time. I am an idiot for not calling the river with 11.75 BB in the pot. On the other hand, he is an idiot for not folding to a three bet on the flop and a bet on the turn. What else can I do here?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, he is an idiot for not folding to a three bet on the flop and a bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly. He won.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
When I muck my ace high, he turns over KJ offsuit. Pure bluff. I was ahead the whole time. I am an idiot for not calling the river with 11.75 BB in the pot. On the other hand, he is an idiot for not folding to a three bet on the flop and a bet on the turn. What else can I do here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a great game.

You have two options:

1) Laugh at him and tell him you folded a worse hand. He'll justify his play and tell you he got the lost river bet out of the turn CR. Continue laughing at him. He'll get POed and play even more aggressively.

2) Get pissed off and reinforce his play so he continues to do it.

I'm not sure which option I like better, but the first one is likely to get you more action from everyone and they'll start taking shots at you. Really depends on your seat and relative position to the more aggressive players, but you can leverage off both options regardless of the circumstances.

[etizzle]

The mistake here was in betting the turn.

Take the free card, and probably call down with A high on the river.

Once you bet the turn, you may want to 3 bet it and check behind on the river unless its a club or an A. Unless of course you think there is any chance he will bluff-cap you, in which there is even more reason why you should just check the turn.

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
When I muck my ace high, he turns over KJ offsuit. Pure bluff. I was ahead the whole time. I am an idiot for not calling the river with 11.75 BB in the pot. On the other hand, he is an idiot for not folding to a three bet on the flop and a bet on the turn. What else can I do here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the replies. There was plenty of advice on what else you could have done.

[na4bart]

It does appear you bet yourself right out of this one. No judgement intended here as I have been guilty of the same mistake and not so sure I have really learned my lesson, lol.