Tough spot with pocket Jacks [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Paluka

02-21-2005, 12:23 PM

What am I supposed to do with these bad boys. Nobody in this hand is a regular, so I don't have any reads.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Paluka is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Paluka calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO caps, Paluka calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Paluka checks, BB bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, CO calls, Paluka calls, BB calls.

Turn: (15 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Paluka checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Paluka calls, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, CO calls, Paluka folds.

River: (22 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 22 BB

mmcd

02-21-2005, 12:27 PM

I might consider raising the turn after the CO bets (and fold to a 3-bet). I think there's a good chance you have him beat, and maybe you could get rid of the rest of them. Plus, you can find out whether any of the others have a 5.

Also, theres a slim chance you get a better overpair to fold here w/ the 4 straight on the board.

DcifrThs

02-21-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What am I supposed to do with these bad boys. Nobody in this hand is a regular, so I don't have any reads.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Paluka is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Paluka calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO caps, Paluka calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
Paluka checks, BB bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, CO calls, Paluka calls, BB calls.

Turn: (15 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Paluka checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Paluka calls, BB folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, CO calls, Paluka folds.

River: (22 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 22 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

this is extremely surprising to me paluka...

why didn't you 3bet preflop from the sb?

given that, and your ideal, and i mean ideal flop and position for it, why didn't you check 3bet the flop and lead the turn??

and look where it got you? since you've so vastly underplayed you're hand here i am going to the river so long as my jj is an overpair...call the turn, check call the river.

EDIT: i didn't see the CO was the bettor on the turn. check raise him on the turn. i was thinking it went bet raise and you were next to act..UTG does not have a 5 in all likely hood and it looks VERY MUCH like you DO have a 5 if you check raise here...you wont get CO to fold a higher pair so given a turn c'r and a CO call, check call the river.

-Barron

steveyz

02-21-2005, 12:39 PM

I'd bet and 3-bet/cap the flop. On the turn I think you have to call down the raise. It's very unlikely UTG+1 has a 5 since s/he raised preflop. At that point even if you know you are behind you probably have 2 outs, and the pots offering you close to the odds to call for that alone. Add that to the chance that you may already be ahead and I think it's a must call down on the turn. You can probably fold the river if an A shows up or maybe the 3rd spade and there's a lot of action.

steveyz

02-21-2005, 12:41 PM

I don't think you can check-raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet. Even if he a set or an overpair you will be getting the correct implied odds to see the river. I think it's very unlikely he has a 5 given the action on before the flop and on the flop.

Paluka

02-21-2005, 12:46 PM

I folded the turn because i did not have the Js in my hand and thought there was zero chance I was currently ahead.

tpir90036

02-21-2005, 01:18 PM

The problem with check 3-betting the flop is that there are already two people who have called two cold on this street and there an awful lot of cards I would not want to see on the turn. I guess it's value... but it certainly isn't protecting anything and I would rather see a brick-ish card on 4th street first.

I really like your line from the turn on though. The action in this hand for the CO is kind of bizzare and it would not surprise me to see him show up with a mid-pair or something like JTs.

Tough spot to be in though and I can't really fault Paluka for folding. If his opponents are sane I would have a hard time believing I was ahead.

Ian J

02-21-2005, 01:46 PM

Paluka,

This is a pretty clear 3 bet preflop IMO. You want to knock out the BB and play this with as thin a field as possible.

On the flop, I would be 3 betting or more likely just leading out so the BB could raise and face the field with 2 bets cold.

The turn you should definitely checkraise the CO's bet, planning on folding to any more resistance from the on.

All in all, I think you played it far too passive. Be more aggressive.

Paluka

02-21-2005, 02:04 PM

Sometimes I won't preflop JJ in this spot preflop against a larger field. I'd rather try to play a favorable flop well. After the flop I'm just really not all that certain I'm winning, and because I don't think any aggression on my part is likely to get a better hand to fold and I may likely get reraised at any point, I'm basically just trying to showdown my hand. When I get checkraised on the turn and it is 4 way action I'm pretty sure that a) i'm losing now and b) Js no good so I folded.
It turns out that both my J outs were good, but I was in 4th place!

skp

02-21-2005, 05:51 PM

UTG+1 does not cap preflop and bb does not 3 bet the flop. These are signs that they don't have an overpair.

CO puts in a California cap preflop after having only called the initial raise. He probably has suited connectors.

But CO doesn't raise the flop (you would think he might if he has a 5 as he would frequently have a 4, 6, or 7 to go along with that 5).

CO bets the turn. The pot is huge. Sounds like a good time for a turn checkraise by you. It should get out Ak etc,. behind you and may very well get QQ to muck.

You can re-evaluate if someone 3 bets the turn. You may very well have to fold then given that they are 3 betting despite the fact that they must think that you could very well have a 5.

Big pots justify taking risks. So, I say raise the turn.

I would also usually 3 bet preflop but that's not too big a deal IMO.

Passive play on this flop given pot size and realtive position is fine IMO for variety of reasons..