I fold KK preflop [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

wheelz

02-21-2005, 06:37 AM

1/2 NL game, 7-handed, villain and I both have a little over $200. Villian is a solid TAG.

UTG raises to 5, folded to me on the button with black kings. I raise to 15, folds back to UTG, who reraises to 60. I fold.

Maybe not a standard fold, but at least a sensible one?

soah

02-21-2005, 11:32 AM

Standard fold against a solid player.

Caruso329

02-21-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Standard fold against a solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

schwza

02-21-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Standard fold against a solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

in a 7-handed game with 100x stacks? i'd like to hear others' feedback. i would not muck here, and i'm not sure what i would do with QQ.

soah

02-21-2005, 11:50 AM

If he'd make that move without AA then he's not a solid player... so I am right by virtue of circular reasoning. =P

thatpfunk

02-21-2005, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Standard fold against a solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Solid players don't raise to $5 with AA utg. They either limp (and try to reraise) or raise to a sensible amount.

Its a sensible fold, but not that doesn't make it a great one.

BobboFitos

02-21-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he'd make that move without AA then he's not a solid player... so I am right by virtue of circular reasoning. =P

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think the opposite. If a player would ONLY make that move with AA, he's not so solid. Do you see why?

kylma

02-21-2005, 12:51 PM

You mean he's predictable if he ONLY does that with AA and so people can safely put him on AA and fold?

You make so much money putting people with KK all in preflop with your AA that if 1 out of 50 players notices the "predictability" I wouldn't really care..

BobboFitos

02-21-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You mean he's predictable if he ONLY does that with AA and so people can safely put him on AA and fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's predictable like this, he allows opponents (like me) to play perfectly against him. If thats the situation, he's NOT solid, because his strategy is easily beatable.
[ QUOTE ]

You make so much money putting people with KK all in preflop with your AA that if 1 out of 50 players notices the "predictability" I wouldn't really care..

[/ QUOTE ]

And I dont disagree. But the topic of this thread is folding KK in this situation, we sorta wandered off...

gr8vertical

02-21-2005, 01:03 PM

With KK I would be tempted to reraise all in and put him to the test. ( I would be ready to see him insta call with AA and also be ready to reload.) He could easily have AK and you can hope he calls and doesn't spike an Ace.

I'm just a rookie though, so don't listen to me... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

kylma

02-21-2005, 01:03 PM

True we did but I think this is very relevant.
KK is only folded when someone might have AA.

So, I think there's a huge difference between ONLY doing this kind of raise with AA or ALWAYS doing it with AA.. You could, and you should play it this way against opponents you believe are likely to call. This is the "ONLY with AA" part.

However, if I suspect you are 1 of those 50 players who notice that I ONLY do it with aces, I would have called the reraise and trap you on later streets.. Thus the unpredictability comes from not ALWAYS doing it the same way..

JKratzer

02-21-2005, 01:19 PM

Your reraise says you have a good hand, his reraise says he doesn't care what you have, he can beat you. The fact he reraised to $60 instead of pushing means he wants you to call....good fold.

JKratzer

AgentBishop

02-21-2005, 01:49 PM

Would our hero’s table image make a difference here at all? Does it make a difference what the villain sees our hero as? Also, is this a push or fold situation where calling is the worse of all three?

SA125

02-21-2005, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
in a 7-handed game with 100x stacks? i'd like to hear others' feedback. i would not muck here, and i'm not sure what i would do with QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's far from a standard muck when you have a $200 stack, KK and the bet is $60 h/u.

[ QUOTE ]
You make so much money putting people with KK all in preflop with your AA that if 1 out of 50 players notices the "predictability" I wouldn't really care.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another poster said that. The problem is, even though you make a lot of money against KK, you're not against it often enough when you have AA. That makes laydowns of other good hands easier against you when you're predictable.

maldini

02-21-2005, 03:34 PM

could i have played this any worse? the raise was to define his hand. i think his reraise answered my question. bad on every street?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($9.50)
MP2 ($8.35)
CO ($36.40)
Button ($25.05)
SB ($32.75)
Hero ($24.80)
UTG ($26.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
5 folds, SB raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.50.

Flop: ($1.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero raises to $3, SB raises to $4.75, Hero calls $1.75.

Turn: ($11) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $3.5, Hero calls $3.50.

River: ($18) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $10.25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $28.25

didnt really want to RR preflop b/c either an A comes or it doesnt. seemed like a solid player but i didnt have all that much data.

any thoughts?

willie

02-21-2005, 03:37 PM

edit

you guys really fold this here?

if you REALLY know the guy then it's possible, but you have to be pretty positive.

Sephus

02-21-2005, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With KK I would be tempted to reraise all in and put him to the test. ( I would be ready to see him insta call with AA and also be ready to reload.) He could easily have AK and you can hope he calls and doesn't spike an Ace.

I'm just a rookie though, so don't listen to me... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

so he calls you with AA/maybe KK and folds everything else. not much of a test /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

TheWorstPlayer

02-21-2005, 05:09 PM

It's the classic "I have more balls than brains" test....

fimbulwinter

02-21-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is a solid TAG

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG raises to 5

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I raise to 15, folds back to UTG, who reraises to 60. I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain is not solid. He's a weak/tight puss who just wanted to get action on his aces and now is squirming in his pants in excitement. this happens all the time live; 2xbb UTG raise, tons of intelligent callers come in behind praying for two pair with any two and then some retard in LP gets cute with 44 and pushes, only to be instacalled by utg and funnel money to the guy who made the brilliant move of minraising aces.

there are many lines here that a good player would probably use to get your stack. this is not one of them.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe not a standard fold, but at least a sensible one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the size of his raise, yes, you done good. he has 4/5ths pot equity here 80% of the time and 1/3rd equity the other 20%. you are therefore "behind" and your stacks do not warrant calling for implied odds. since all profitable avenues of your hand are gone, you fold.

fim

wheelz

02-21-2005, 05:57 PM

Yeah, he had aces... I wasn't too surprised.

My table image was also really good, so when he made the reraise, I figured he had them.

I also was surprised he played them so transparently (the $5 raise... huh? I swear he's a good player /images/graemlins/wink.gif) but when he made the reraise, I had no doubt in my mind.

Thanks for the comments.

TheWorstPlayer

02-21-2005, 06:01 PM

This is 100% a thread hijack attempt. Also, I think this hand could be played much better. Why don't you post it in a new thread and get some responses?

radioheadfan

02-21-2005, 06:11 PM

Holy [censored] that's a terrible fold.

Call and play poker. You have position on him. You gave credit for AA? Weak play my friend.

wheelz

02-21-2005, 06:18 PM

This is the second time I have ever laid down KK preflop. I was right both times.

It's not like this is a normal play for me, I was just that sure he had aces. I didn't think it was very weak at all. He certainly played his hand like aces, and he was a pretty straightforward player, so why not save my stack?

What good is position doing for me here? If I don't shove preflop he certainly will on the flop.

TheWorstPlayer

02-21-2005, 06:40 PM

You made a good play. You are really getting a lot of testosterone responses instead of smart plays. This guy made a bad play here and you should certainly take advantage of it. He might as well have turned his hand face up. People who are saying not to fold are purely one level thinkers.

BobboFitos

02-21-2005, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People who are saying not to fold are purely one level thinkers.

[/ QUOTE ]

or level 3 thinkers :P

TheWorstPlayer

02-21-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People who are saying not to fold are purely one level thinkers.

[/ QUOTE ]

or level 3 thinkers :P

[/ QUOTE ]
Level 3 thinkers realise when their opponents are not level 3 thinkers. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

RiverTheNuts

02-21-2005, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
could i have played this any worse? the raise was to define his hand. i think his reraise answered my question. bad on every street?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($9.50)
MP2 ($8.35)
CO ($36.40)
Button ($25.05)
SB ($32.75)
Hero ($24.80)
UTG ($26.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
5 folds, SB raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.50.

Flop: ($1.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero raises to $3, SB raises to $4.75, Hero calls $1.75.

Turn: ($11) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $3.5, Hero calls $3.50.

River: ($18) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $10.25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $28.25

didnt really want to RR preflop b/c either an A comes or it doesnt. seemed like a solid player but i didnt have all that much data.

any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either fold the turn or call the river, its hella weak to call and then fold when a card that cant help him comes when he's leading every street. He either has AA, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, or TT, none of which you beat

TheWorstPlayer

02-21-2005, 08:56 PM

Fine, if we're going to discuss this here: raise more on the flop, fold to the re-raise.

thatpfunk

02-21-2005, 09:17 PM

uh, how about raising preflop. that hand is atrocious

TheWorstPlayer

02-21-2005, 09:54 PM

Wow, I didn't even notice that he didn't raise preflop. Thought he was the one doing the raising. So, OK:
1. Re-raise preflop
2. Raise more on the flop, fold to the re-raise
3. Once you get to the turn, fold to the turn bet
4. Once you get to the river, call the river bet

Kaz The Original

02-21-2005, 10:15 PM

You could have played it worse. You could have called the river.

Reraise preflop. As you played it, fold to the bet on the flop.

TheWorstPlayer

02-21-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As you played it, fold to the bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
As he played it, folding to the flop bet is criminal.

soah

02-22-2005, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he'd make that move without AA then he's not a solid player... so I am right by virtue of circular reasoning. =P

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think the opposite. If a player would ONLY make that move with AA, he's not so solid. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a baby NL game with clueless people, trying to push people off of better hands is not solid play.

vanHelsing

02-22-2005, 06:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, he had aces...

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I swear he's a good player

[/ QUOTE ]
Would a good player voluntary show his hand here?

theredpill5

02-22-2005, 09:31 AM

What do I need to read to understand Fimbul's responses ?

[ QUOTE ]
Given the size of his raise, yes, you done good. he has 4/5ths pot equity here 80% of the time and 1/3rd equity the other 20%. you are therefore "behind" and your stacks do not warrant calling for implied odds. since all profitable avenues of your hand are gone, you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]