Further examination of pocket pairs

[chucklhead]

Hello all,
I am trying to find a point at which overpairs become foldable. Here is a hand that I am certain I misplayed in many places.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

My thinking on the flop is that a single bet does not protect my hand if it is best. When player on my left bets, raising will not protect my hand either. When the 5 of spades falls, I am worried. However, now I have a draw to the queen spade flush. What should I value this hand at? (2 queen outs, 9 discounted spade outs, + the outside chance that I still have the best hand). The more I look at it, the more I cannot justify calling two bets on the turn. On the river, I am feeling like I cannot fold given the massive size of the pot.

Thanks for the critique,
Chucklhead

[private joker]

1. Cap preflop
2. Bet and 3-bet the flop.
3. Fold the turn when it's 2 bets to you.


EDIT: Re-thinking the turn... if the A and/or K of spades are out there, your flush is worthless. But if they're not, your 9 outs are mainly clean (save for the freak boat). Your 2 Q outs are obviously clean. I'd discount the spade outs to about 5, so with 7 outs, getting about 5.5:1 on your call, it's very very thin. But not a clear fold.

[Alexthegreat]

You should cap preflop and lead the flop.....If you get raised, 3-bet..You should be able to define your hand very nicely like that, but you also will be able to define their hands as well...If you are raising every chance you get preflop and on the flop with your big pairs, you should be able to fold to turn raises, because they mostly will only come from hands that beat yours....

Don't worry too much about protecting your hand with draw heavy flops like this one.....they aren't going anywhere, and you often let them see the turn for free or for 1 bet, which is ideal for them, but not you....

[RollingRockMike]

Cap preflop, bet or c/r the flop. If I capped preflop and am raised or 3-bet on this flop, he's representing a higher pkt pair. Absent any other read I'm slowing down here.

Fold the turn, you're losing badly and your spade outs are worthless. If you make it to the river, you have to make a crying call.

[DeeJ]

Cap preflop, lead flop, bet-fold turn, fold river. I would play it differently on every street. I may have better information than you by the turn though /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[stonecoldnuts]

blah, yuck, blah, passive.

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello all,
I am trying to find a point at which overpairs become foldable. Here is a hand that I am certain I misplayed in many places.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

My thinking on the flop is that a single bet does not protect my hand if it is best. When player on my left bets, raising will not protect my hand either. When the 5 of spades falls, I am worried. However, now I have a draw to the queen spade flush. What should I value this hand at? (2 queen outs, 9 discounted spade outs, + the outside chance that I still have the best hand). The more I look at it, the more I cannot justify calling two bets on the turn. On the river, I am feeling like I cannot fold given the massive size of the pot.

Thanks for the critique,
Chucklhead

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep you played the hand badly but i can't believe so many people are advocating a turn fold to the raise. What makes everybody so sure your behind? without reads. MP3 bet the flop he's unlikely to have a six as he had to call a raise pre-flop plus he's got to expect the CO to raise him here so if he does have a six he's going to end up blowing away alot of people he doesn't mind having in the hand. Any 6 here is going to let the pre-flop raiser bet then raise the field. On the turn the SB raises that far from guarantees hes got the flush this is a big pot and people will correctly put in raises to protect there hand. He could have an overpair he could have the A or K for the flush draw he could have a straight heck he could only have a seven. We have no read he could have a lot of hands which we can outdraw and WE MAY STILL BE AHEAD HERE, getting 5.5 to 1 this has to be an easy call. If the SB is a good player what can you put him on if he has two spades then he should have raised the flop he didn't so that reduces the chances he has one now, a biggish pocket pair is quiet likely but as he didn't cap it less likely to be AA or KK and you have two of the Qs. Lot's of hands raise this turn which you either beat or have out's against don't fold the turn it's plain WRONG.

[xxxxx]

There's no way you are ahead here but you do have a lot of outs.

[krishanleong]

Horrendous hand. Cap prefop. This is easy.

You need to understand one thing about protecting you hand. And that thing is....

There are times when you can't do it so you should just bet and grin and bear it.

Krishan

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way you are ahead here but you do have a lot of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

rubbish you might not be ahead 1 in 5.5 but your ahead here often enough that combined with your flush outs you have to call. Lot's of hands will raise this turn scare card, if i had any overpair or an As/Ks with a 5 or 7 i certainly would. Certainly nobody should be folding this turn.

[Bill C]

Hi Chuck,

The problem with commenting on what happens in this hand post-flop is this: it might have been entirely different had you played it different PF and on the flop. Your QQ is a premium hand, and you have to bet it like it is, especially in EP. Because if you don't, you are allowing ops to think you have less and take shots at draws. When CO 3 bets, you should reraise. And you should lead out on the flop, reraising if raised. The board is a little drawy, but you have two pair, and a set of 6s isn't very likely. At this point it is highly likely that you have the best hand, and you have to make it very expensive for ops to draw to longshots. If you check the flop, as you did, what are thinking ops going to conclude about your hand? You're basically trapping them INTO the hand to draw against you.

On the turn, you need some info, so bet out. If you are raised then, you can fold because you are a dead duck.

When you get good cards like this, you have to be aggressive. That was one of the hardest things for me to learn. But you can't "sneak up on them" and try to win but not lose any chips if you get beat. You have to put your chips at risk.

Just my $.02 worth...
bill

[xxxxx]

[ QUOTE ]
if i had any overpair or an As/Ks with a 5 or 7 i certainly would. Certainly nobody should be folding this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cold call a raise with A7o? I'm not convinced pocket tens or jacks is worth raising the turn with but who knows? Hypothetically he thinks everyone is on a draw so I might as well charge them.

Didn't say you should be folding this turn.

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i had any overpair or an As/Ks with a 5 or 7 i certainly would. Certainly nobody should be folding this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cold call a raise with A7o? I'm not convinced pocket tens or jacks is worth raising the turn with but who knows? Hypothetically he thinks everyone is on a draw so I might as well charge them.

Didn't say you should be folding this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't but some do and with much worse

[ErrantNight]

ooohh oooh! i get to say it: "misplayed on every street"

capping preflop: standard
leading the flop: standard
3-betting the flop: standard

i don't think you can necessarily judge the turn play at this point because it will have changed dramatically given this increased aggression. if it hasn't, you'll know a lot more about your hand's value.

[xxxxx]

I don't play party bridge. I play $2-$4 B&amp;M where (almost) everyone is a calling station and a turn raise means something. You might have a better grasp of the local conditions.

[ErrantNight]

the turn play just isn't the problem with this hand. and the turn might be infinitely easier to call if he'd bet the first two streets correctly.

[Chobohoya]

Without a read on CO, I cap this preflop. On the flop, you have to follow through with the checkraise. Think about what's going to happen on the turn after you just call the flop bet. If a non-scary card (for you) falls, and you bet, you may get people folding or just calling with their pair of 7s or A high or whatever. If you check the non-scary card, they might check through with their draws, which is terrible.

If you call the flop and then CHECK the turn, you're going to be in the same "unable to protect your hand" situation you were in on the flop, because why shouldn't MP3 bet? So check raise the flop. Maybe he'll three bet you with 7's or a draw or something. That's the problem, he could have anything. If you can better define his hand on the flop, you alleviate your turn/river situation.

As it came, I think you should fold the turn when it's two bets back to you, you're getting 5.5-1, but I doubt if your draw is worth 8-1. If for some reason you call, call the river.

[meep_42]

Cap PF
Lead the flop -- sure it won't protect, but you probably have the best hand, charge the others to draw out on you.
Bet the turn -- you have 9 outs to the 3rd nut flush and 2 outs to the nuts and probably still have the best hand.
Call the river, though SB will show down a straight or flush a lot of the time. (Actually, i'm split on calling the river, I don't think you're good here quite enough to be profitable, but it's close imo)

-d

-d

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]


On the turn, you need some info, so bet out. If you are raised then, you can fold because you are a dead duck.



[/ QUOTE ]

No your not if you bet out and get raised your going to have the odds to call (i can't be bothered to work it out exactly) you have nine flush outs if your raised and you put them on a made flush then you can reduce that to seven plus there is a chance someone has the A or K so five outs seems reasonable. But you also have two queen outs and there are two 6 outs which might be good. If we call it eight outs that's going to have plenty to call a single raise to your bet. You can't fold this turn even if you bet and get raised.

[ElAnimal]

Dumb question from a newbie: So is it general practice to cap, when possible, with pocket queens preflop (with or without reads?). If not, what are the factors you consider when deciding whether to cap or call a three-bet? Though it happens rarely, would you cold call a cap with QQ preflop? I know this must be obvious, but thanks in advance for the response.

[chucklhead]

Thank you all,
I appreciate the expected criticism. I will not try to defend myself as any thoughts I might have had are obviously wrong.

I will be more aggressive when I hold premium pairs. I know this is a basic lesson. However, it is obviously one I need to learn.

Chucklhead