Low pair plus backdoor

[macdaddy991]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

I have not been playing well as of late. Discipline pre flop has been off (as seen by the bad pre flop call in this hand) I actually quit soon after this hand because while I won it, I played several streets poorly.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Bad preflop call for position, I called the raise because of the number of other callers in the pot.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.



Turn: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 16 BB

Yay I raised the pure nuts. I think the river was about the only street I played decently correct.

[Shillx]

Nice hand.

Brad

[Kumubou]

The call pre-flop isn't that bad; if the table is sufficently loose then a call is justified. Really one of those marginal decision though; on a tighter table I would muck this hand. Once it comes back for one more you really have no choice but to call it again.

I junk this on the flop, though (expecially with MP3 acting all fiesty pre-flop, decent chance that he raises that bet again). You have a runner-runner flush you don't have odds on and bottom pair.

Actually, the turn call is fine once the heart pops up on the turn. You're drawing to the nuts with 10:1 pot odds while also closing the action with the call.

-K

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the river was about the only street I played decently correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Your turn call was fine, too. The pot was 10BB at that point. Your odds to improve to the "pure nuts" are roughly 20% (~1/5). You are getting 2x the odds you need to make this call profitable. If you do anything else, you are playing VERY poorly. Cold calling a raise on this turn would still carry a positive expectation. You must call.

[fluxrad]

[ QUOTE ]
I junk this on the flop, though (expecially with MP3 acting all fiesty pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh? He's got a good 4 outs (minus A/images/graemlins/club.gif) to improve to two pair or better, plus the back door flush draw. That's 5.5 outs with 11:1 pot odds. I definitely call it.

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
He's got a good 4 outs (minus A) to improve to two pair or better, plus the back door flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't forget the backdoor straight draw.

Your avatar rules, btw.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh? He's got a good 4 outs (minus A/images/graemlins/club.gif) to improve to two pair or better, plus the back door flush draw. That's 5.5 outs with 11:1 pot odds. I definitely call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my thinking too. My only real fear was the BB cap, but I forced myself to stop worrying about monsters under the bed a while ago.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eh? He's got a good 4 outs (minus A/images/graemlins/club.gif) to improve to two pair or better, plus the back door flush draw. That's 5.5 outs with 11:1 pot odds. I definitely call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my thinking too. My only real fear was the BB cap, but I forced myself to stop worrying about monsters under the bed a while ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

A case can probably be made (correctly so) for raising the flop. Depending on what he will do with hands like AJ and QQ, a raise on the flop might be better then a call. If he is weak-tight, you should raise this flop. If he is a calling machine then just calling looks fine to me.

Brad

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]


A case can probably be made (correctly so) for raising the flop. Depending on what he will do with hands like AJ and QQ, a raise on the flop might be better then a call. If he is weak-tight, you should raise this flop. If he is a calling machine then just calling looks fine to me.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Even to give myself almost even odds? Elaborate a little more, this is an interesting concept.

[cold_cash]

I was just going to post that I know people who would raise this flop.

I don't know how often it would happen, but it would be bitchin' if you got MP3 to fold a hand like AT or JJ.

Of course, a lot depends on the BB here also. If he's never going to bet a draw I think raising loses most of it's appeal. With this particular flop I think calling is probably best, but I could envision a lot of other middle-pair/backdoor flush flops that you should probably be raising in this spot.

[cold_cash]

If there is virtually no chance MP3 is folding a better hand a flop raise isn't going to do what you want it to do.

Ideally, you would raise the flop, MP3 folds his QQ, you get it heads up with the BB, value bet the turn, then check behind on the river when the club draw doesn't get there.

He turns over his J/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif and says "Everybody makes their flushes against me, but I can never hit one." MP3 then has a cow because he can't believe he folded his Queens, and you look like Doyle Brunson.

If, however, MP3 will hold onto those Queens like grim-death no matter how many bets/raises you put in, the above scenario becomes impossible.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


A case can probably be made (correctly so) for raising the flop. Depending on what he will do with hands like AJ and QQ, a raise on the flop might be better then a call. If he is weak-tight, you should raise this flop. If he is a calling machine then just calling looks fine to me.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Even to give myself almost even odds? Elaborate a little more, this is an interesting concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the idea is that sometimes the flop bettor will be betting a hand that you currently have beat. The most obvious example is a flush draw. If you raise and the PFR folds a hand like JJ (that has you beat), you will be playing HU with roughly a 50/50 chance to win (depending on if the bettor has overcards). By knocking out the JJ, your equity goes from 17% to ~50%.

So your EV when you raise = .5*14 SB - 2 SB = 5 SB
Your EV when you call = .17*13 SB - 1 SB = 1.2 SB

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Brad

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]

So your EV when you raise = .5*14 SB - 2 SB = 5 SB
Your EV when you call = .17*13 SB - 1 SB = 1.2 SB

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Good concept, I will try to apply it when the context is right. I am still going to take some time off, I need to reset my thinking and reread Small Stakes.