flop raise leads to painful laydown....

omaha 8/better pot limit .50-1.00 blinds

i have JhJdAsKs on the button and a 48 dollar stack, i limp (i know many of you would raise here) after 3 limpers, game has been fairly passive so far.sb completes and six see the flop

the flop QhJs6s.

sb (stack 100)bets out half the pot 3 dollars, one caller to me, and i raise to six, (i know a lot of you would probablyraise pot here,well the button pops it back the pot, limper folds and it's headsup to me for 24 dollars leaving me pot committed (yes? no?)with 16 dollars left if i call.

i make a very painful laydown as i think i am set under set although i have nut flush draw and nut inside straight draw

should i just stick to knitting and needlepoint?

[Ray Zee]

hillbilly, you are indeed a total wimp. you need to raise more here as you well know. you cant let someone draw out or pick up a draw that makes their hand better than yours. but to lay it down after the pot has grown to a decent size with you having less than what you can win left is bad. you were getting around pot odds if he had you with three queens and really had him if he had worse than you. in a big stakes games you would always see three queens here, but in smaller games its any thing goes. so you needed to call for all your money and hope for the best. dont let me down in the future.

I think the laydown is the only strong part of your play in this hand. I would have raised pre-flop. You have position ( not worth as much in this game as Omaha high, but I'd still rather have it than not have it. ) It may also limit the field ( You would know whether this was possible given your line up. )
On the flop I would definitely have made a pot sized raise. At that point it looks like your hand is the best so you want to build the pot. Also you don't mind winning the hand here and now. You have a big hand, but how many turn cards do you like? An off suit Ace, King ,9 or 8 would put a possible straigt out there, and any Ace, 2,3,4,5,7, or 8 puts a low draw there, so now there would be a chance your good high hand would only take half the pot. Also your opponent could pick up a back door flush draw to outrun your trips. In short on that flop, If I felt confident I had the best hand on the flop I would try to commit my stack to the hand there and then, I wouldn't want a scare card to come on the turn and now be calling a big bet for the outdraw.
If you are sure his re-raise meant he had trip queens I would ditch. You have 12 outs, 8 spades, 1 jack, and 3 off-suit 10's. When I play Omaha high I always assume that I want a 17-18 card draw to be evens against top trips, and, with 12 outs, I make you about 2-1 against winning this hand. What odds are you getting? You will have to put $40 in ( because if you call this re-raise the rest of the money is going in either now or on the turn, ) and if you win, you will get $40 from your opponent and the $24 in the pot, so you are getting about 6-4. So providing you are confident you are looking at top set I think your fold is correct.

[Ignatius]

> i limp (i know many of you would raise here)

Oh yes! This is a premium hand. Raise to build a pot and try to get position.

> flop QhJs6s [...] 3 dollars, one caller to me, and i raise to six

If you somehow knew that a minimum raise would trigger a reraise (unrealistic), then making it 6 is OK. Otherwise you need to raise big to protect you hands against str8 draws and to commit any caller to the pot.

> button pops it back the pot

Perfect! Just what you waited for - move in and expect to be miles ahead.

> i make a very painful laydown as i think i am set under set

What??? Even if he would flip over two queens, you are better than 2:3 to win the hand and moving in would still show a profit (net EV +$3), and you're better than 3:1 against pretty much anything else and will often have him practically drawing dead. To even consider mucking here is outrageous.

cu

Ignatius

but i do my best, heh.

in hindsight i sure wish i would have just smoothcalled the 3 dollar flop bet (with position) and seen what the turn card was....

thanks for all your thoughts

[Big Dave D]

My 2c

1. Dont raise preflop...u need to hit a good flop and a reraise would/should make you pass.
2. You dont have to raise the pot, but at least 3/4 or so is essential. If you're behind you've got the odds once you've been reraised and a REALLY doubt you're behind. I suspect you are describing an online game and in such a lineup I would equally expect to see bottom trips or top two pair.

In general, the only round you played well was preflop, and you werent sure about it!

If you are playing on real short money, build up your tank in a limit O8b game first. PLO8b is constructed to reward tight aggressive play, anything else and you may b in trouble.

GL

[Greg (FossilMan)]

That's not what they said. Play the flop aggressively. You likely have the best hand. And when you don't, you have MANY outs (and therefore aren't far behind).

You will make much more long-term profit if you play fast in spots like this.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

hillbilly,

I would not have raised preflop and don't think it's close. You're playing 8/b and have no possibility for low.

On the flop, you have a MONSTER. Listen to Uncle Ray: push all your chips in and throw your three-color flannel shirt on top for good measure.

Matt

but if you hit your hand there aren't going to be low cards on the board, so isn't raising ok?

[Big Dave D]

And you get reraised preflop and then what do you do? Call as presumingly a big dog or pass a hand you actually wanted to play. Unless you hit a flop as strong as the one described, you are typically wanting to pass. As these are rare you don't want to be escalating the size of a pot when you are much more likely to miss than hit.

Gl

Dave

well i think it depends how much money you have in front of you. certainly you don't want to be committed. but i think there are plenty of good hands worth raising with to reduce the field that you'd rather not see a reraise with, especially in position. i don't think it's an automatic fold to a reraise, but that's a decision to be made if and when it happens.