O8 hand review

[foldingmachine]

I'm relatively new to O8, but I've started playing daily for the past couple of weeks. The game is a loose passive 3/6 online game. There are around 5 to a flop, but very litle pre flop raising.
I'm in the BB with AcJc2d10h. UTG+1 limps, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, and I check. I comtemplated pumping the pot with the suited A2 and decent scoop potential, but don't like raisng from the BB without a low back up. Thoughts?
Flop comes Kd3cQh, gut shot draw and back door nut draws..I decide to check and call. I check, UTG+1 bets, MP and Button call then SB raises putting him all in. SB has been playing like a maniac having dumped 100 bucks in the last 4 hands. I'm pretty sure with the way the table has been that if I call it wont get re raised....I decide to call as do the rest of the table. Turn now comes 4c, this gives me great scoop potential with all my draws to the nuts. I'm out of position so I decide to check planning on a c/r. Here's where it gets a bit weird, everybody checks the turn? River is now Kc, board is now paired but I do have the nut flush with no low on the board. I value bet, even plan on calling a raise since I figured someone with 2 pair would've bet the turn to charge the low draws. I get 1 call, and 1 over call. It didn't show the original raisers hand. I scoop with the flush, got called with 3K's and 2 pairJ's andK's. The result was nice, but I feel I made errors along the way. Any feedback would be great, my main concern was calling the flop raise.

Thanks

[BradleyT]

I don't think it was that bad. You have 3 ace, 3 ten, 3 jack, 4 nine outs to give you nut straight. So that's 13 outs there plus one or two for your backdoor draws and you're looking at 15 outs.

If the turn is a low club your scoop outs go up astronomically. When this happens the only thing that you don't want to see is a 2 or a pairing on the board. Every other card gives you at least half the pot.

[Moneyline]

Pre flop: I would frequently raise in this spot, especially so if I don't respect my opponents. This hand has great scoop potential so I wouldn't mind getting money in early, even if I don't have a backup low.

Flop: Great flop... You have more than just a gutshot, you have a wrap, and every straight you make will be the nuts. You have 13 nut straight outs (for the whole pot), a backdoor nut flush draw, and a backdoor nut low draw. I would bet here. It's not a big deal if the pot gets raised behind you, because you have so many outs that your pot equity likely outweighs the number of players in the pot. However, I would not jam the pot for value because, despite your equity, one of the raisers might be drawing to some of the same straight outs as you are.

Turn: Bet for value. By my count, there are only 15 possible river cards that could hurt you (the 12 cards that pair the boardand the other 3 deuces)... and you may even win if one of these hits if you make a flush and no one has a full house. I don't like check/raising here unless you know a bet is likely coming from your immediate left. If the bet comes from the right and you raise, you'll likely drive people out of the pot who you want to stay in. Even worse is the situation that happened, when it gets checked around you don't collect any bets when you are in a commanding position.

River: This is a tricky situation to play, IMO... and I think you played it nicely as you seem to have a good handle on your opponents. IMO the river decision is by far the most difficult of the hand, and I'm not exactly sure which is the best way to handle it on most occasions.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I comtemplated pumping the pot with the suited A2 and decent scoop potential, but don't like raisng from the BB without a low back up. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding Machine - You can raise or not before the flop. Whether raising or limping is best depends, in my humble opinion, on your opponents. Mixing it up here is fine too, also IMHO.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes Kd3cQh, gut shot draw and back door nut draws..I decide to check and call. I check, UTG+1 bets, MP and Button call then SB raises putting him all in. SB has been playing like a maniac having dumped 100 bucks in the last 4 hands. I'm pretty sure with the way the table has been that if I call it wont get re raised....I decide to call as do the rest of the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would depend on my opponents, but usually I’d bet this flop with AcJc2d10h. If I didn’t bet myself, I’d call the bet and raise. I’d think a re-raise from UTG+1 would mean a set of kings (but that didn’t happen anyway). I wouldn’t expect a limp/re-raise from MP or Button, but would call that too.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn now comes 4c, this gives me great scoop potential with all my draws to the nuts. I'm out of position so I decide to check planning on a c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

I’d bet the turn straightforwardly for several reasons.
• SB is already all in (if I’m reading you correctly). If UTG+1 checks and then Button bets, the double big bet may knock out UTG+1, but you shouldn’t want to knock out anyone. You have a pure drawing hand and I think you want customers on the river if you hit one of your nut draws.
• You’ll be getting 2 to 1 fresh money odds for your bet. You don’t have anything yet, but you like almost the whole deck for at least part of the pot! The odds are enormously in your favor. You want to make sure fresh money gets put into the pot on the third betting round.
• I know check-raising is part of the game, but it often causes bad feelings. If you need to do it for tactical reasons, such as controlling a too frequent bluffer or semi-bluffer behind you, that’s one thing. (You can’t tolerate somebody nipping at your heels every time he’s got position on you). But otherwise you might do better for yourself in the long run by generally avoiding it. Some people get very angry when they lose and you don’t want them taking their anger out on you, or waiting for an away from the table opportunity for revenge. And that’s exactly what might happen if you check-raise somebody. It’s no good to make enemies.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's where it gets a bit weird, everybody checks the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think that’s weird. Not at all. That’s commonplace. That’s the second reason I’ve listed above for not trying for a check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
River is now Kc, board is now paired but I do have the nut flush with no low on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch! Kc is one of the two enigmatic cards in the stub. (The other is Qc). Of the remaining 42 unknown cards going into the river, 30 get you at least part of the pot and only 12 get you nothing. I have a slightly different count than Moneyline because I’m not counting the deuce of clubs as a negative card (although it only gets you half the pot).

[ QUOTE ]
I value bet, even plan on calling a raise since I figured someone with 2 pair would've bet the turn to charge the low draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reasonable. I likes it.

[ QUOTE ]
The result was nice, but I feel I made errors along the way. Any feedback would be great, my main concern was calling the flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the flop raise was fine. I think you should have bet the flop yourself, but once you didn’t, calling the flop raise was correct.

I wouldn’t exactly call not directly betting both the flop and the turn “errors,” but I think you missed a bet in both of these places.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

If I have any shot at making a high, I like to bet the flop when two or three high cards come. Especailly if it is rainbow. Many more players play low cards. You usually have a good chance to either win the pot right there or significantly narrow the field.

Since you were the big blind and got a free play you could have anything. I would definietely bet this rainbow flop.

[Beavis68]

I made a horrible mistake this weekend on party, I had 2334 in the SB, flop was A5J, and I checked hoping to check-raise a guy that I thought would bet it a lot. Turn was a Q putting two spades and broad way on the board, I check and it was bet and raised back to me and I dumped the hand because the pot was fairly small and I could be have lost my scoop potential - if I would have bet the flop it would have been big enough to call, and I would have scooped. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes Kd3cQh, gut shot draw

[/ QUOTE ]

You hold AJT2. This is not a gut shot draw. Any A, J, T, or 9 gives you the nut straight. That is a wrap with 13 outs.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
I know check-raising is part of the game, but it often causes bad feelings....Some people get very angry when they lose and you don’t want them taking their anger out on you, or waiting for an away from the table opportunity for revenge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez, what kind of places are you playing in, Buzz?

In an online game, I think the risk of away-from-the-table mayhem is fairly small, unless you're using your Social Security number as your screen name.

-- M. Ruff

[foldingmachine]

....missing the fact that it was a wrap draw, not gut shot shows you that I'm still in the HE frame of mind. It's clear now that I look at it. Thanks for the replies everybody.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeez, what kind of places are you playing in, Buzz?

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt - I've seen some ill will and nastiness in poker games and in the aftermath of poker games over the years. It can happen anywhere.

[ QUOTE ]
In an online game, I think the risk of away-from-the-table mayhem is fairly small

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. The post <font color="white">_</font>was about an on-line game.

Buzz