Frop plan in a biggish pot

[sfer]

Nate posted a similar hand a couple of weeks ago and I think this spot is interesting/useful enough for a little repetition.

Live 4/8. 2+2er UTG limps, tight player limps in EP, weak-tight player raises, loose erratic player coolcalls (plays 60+% of his hands, pulled a three street bluff on me with K high after I raised the flop), folded to me in the BB and I call with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif, everyone calls.

5 to the frop for 10.5 SBs. Frop is K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. What's my plan?

[Harv72b]

My first instinct is to bet out and hope for a raise from the PFR. The problem is that this line puts your two early limpers in the situation of having to call a bet early with the PFR yet to act, which they may not want to do without a K.

The c/r option doesn't look all that good, though, since you've again got your two limpers acting between you and the PFR, and you've got that erractic player right behind the PFR, so it could end up being 2 cold back to you anyway.

At any rate, you definitely want to get some chips into the pot after this flop, so I go with betting out and hoping you don't scare out most of the field.

[mtdoak]

I bet out here, and 3 bet if raised from someone after most people call. If your raised by someone and it thins the field I just call. The more people in the hand, the more +EV is to jam the pot with your strong draw. If you can get 4 people to the turn for 3 bets a piece when you are going to win the pot > 30% of the time, its a good thing.

[brettbrettr]

I think I like the c/r line better. I think either the 2+2er or the weak-tight fella is going to raise and shut guys out.

[Entity]

This flop is huge for you and if the PFR is weak, I don't see him raising your flop bet too often. I think the two players in EP are less likely to be trapped by betting out, given their tight description, and I don't know how often you'll get raised by a weakish PFR, so I'd check with the intention of raising, or possibly check-3bet it the loose guy raises, because I think my pair outs will be good sometimes against him too, and wouldn't mind getting it HU if the pot won't remain multiway.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like the c/r line better. I think either the 2+2er or the weak-tight fella is going to raise and shut guys out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the 2+2er will fold the vast majority of the time to a flop bet, and the weak-tight guy won't raise very often, but he'll bet more often than he raises.

Rob

[DMBFan23]

Hmm, the weak tight player can't be counted on to raise this flop for us, though this is certainly a flop he might like. the tight players in between myself and the raiser make me not like betting. the lack of players to trap makes me not like a c/r.

I think the best way to get money in the pot here is a check call, with a possible check raise if an EP player bets. live poker is so dependant on reads, though, so if you pick up some tell that the tight players want to call or that the PFR might not bet, then perhaps you should bet it yourself.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]

I think the 2+2er will fold the vast majority of the time to a flop bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, but I think that if he does continue he'll probably raise.

[Trix]

Really depends how weak-tight, the weak-tight guy is and how the others play. Usually I´ll just bet for value here and to clean outs or improve the chance of winning when I catch something.

If you think you can fold TT-QQ by check-raising, but not by betting, then it might be worth it.

If weak-tight checks and erractic guy bets, then check-raising to get heads up with a hand that may fold later may also be good.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I like the c/r line better. I think either the 2+2er or the weak-tight fella is going to raise and shut guys out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the 2+2er will fold the vast majority of the time to a flop bet, and the weak-tight guy won't raise very often, but he'll bet more often than he raises.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.

[Shillx]

Let's say that the flop were A97 (gutshot and no flush draw). You would bet that with hopes of knocking out KK-TT. I don't think that this one is much different. You would still like to fold out QQ-TT if that is what the PFR has. If people play back, you can adjust your strategy from trying to buy outs to trying to build a pot for your nice draw. To me it is a win-win type situation here.

Brad

[sfer]

I decided to check since a flop bet would usually fold UTG/EP and Mr. WT would raise with AA/KK/AK/KQ, possibly driving out the erratic late position player and maximizing the chances of getting the pot HU when he's committed to showdown. So I checked and it checked to the erratic button who bet and I checkraised. Checkraising now, I think everyone should agree, is by far the best action I can take.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I decided to check since a flop bet would usually fold UTG/EP and Mr. WT would raise with AA/KK/AK/KQ, possibly driving out the erratic late position player and maximizing the chances of getting the pot HU when he's committed to showdown. So I checked and it checked to the erratic button who bet and I checkraised. Checkraising now, I think everyone should agree, is by far the best action I can take.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, given the descriptions of the players and the flop texture, checking with the intention of raising seems way better than betting out.

[imported_PP123]

Nate posted a similar hand a couple of weeks ago

Do you know the link to that hand?

Back to your hand... how did u play the turn/river?

[BottlesOf]

If part of the reason you checked the flop was to avoid knocking out the early people, why are you now check raising a late bet? Your hand seems quite strong and one of those hands, where you don't mind getting a bunch of money in on the flop for value, or knocking people out to clean up outs, so I don't quite see why either option is "clearly" better than the other??

Do you think the flop c/r here would fold a QQ/JJ/TT from the early guys whereas a flop bet would not?

[Carmine]

My thinking may be wrong here, but this is how I see it.

You have 6 outs to a J or T a hand that you want to knock out players to maximize your chances. You have 13 outs to one of your draws. A hand which you want to keep players in and jam the pot. You're more likely to hit your draw. So I would check(a bet can easily fold the EP limpers) and expect a Bet from the PFR. I then just call this bet hoping for the overcalls. It is also very likely that K hit one of the other players and your J/T outs are dead. I say jam the pot not knock out opponents.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think the flop c/r here would fold a QQ/JJ/TT from the early guys whereas a flop bet would not?

[/ QUOTE ]
Against a weak tighty, doesn't it seem more likely?

I think the two EP players are pretty likely to fold this flop regardless, but once crazyman bets, I think checkraising is the best play by quite a bit.

Rob

[chief444]

When the pot gets big it's usually a good idea to clean up some outs and/or give yourself a chance to win without a showdown.

[sfer]

So, live 4/8. 2+2er UTG limps, tight player limps in EP, weak-tight player raises, loose erratic player coolcalls (plays 60+% of his hands, pulled a three street bluff on me with K high after I raised the flop), folded to me in the BB and I call with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif, everyone calls.

5 to the frop for 10.5 SBs. Frop is K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check, UTG checks, EP checks, Mr. WT checks, Mr. Erratic bets, I checkraise, everyone folds to Mr. Erratic who calls.

The turn completes my frush and I value bet the next two streets and win.

[Evan]

Shouldn't the title be "Frop Pran..."?