Check or bet this turn 15-30 Party

[Michael Davis]

I'm not too good at this game and maybe this is a simple situation but I eff it up all the time. So help.

I don't have any data on this player and I just joined the table two hands ago.

I threebet a CO raiser with 55 from the button. Flop comes T63 with two clubs and I don't have one. Checkbetcall.

Turn is the K of clubs and it's checked to me. What's my plan for the rest of the hand?

-Michael

[bugstud]

bet/muck or check/call imo

[stoxtrader]

this is also opponenet dependant, but my default would be to bet, fold to a c/r and try to take a free showdown. you want to represent the K, and folding middle pairs is a coup.

I would check behind on turn only if I had opponent pegged as someone capable of c/raising the turn on a bluff (maybe 10-20% of opponents in the 15).

[sthief09]

the reason I don't like checking here is because even if his opponent is behind, he has at least 13 outs to catch up (9 to a chop). logically, I understand what you're saying, but the fact that his opponent is ALWAYS drawing very live makes that a pretty scary free card to give, even if he's against someone who likes to bluff. I also think the times he makes his opponent fold a similar hand like a crubless 66 or 77 makes up for the times he folds to a guy with 4 overcard outs plus 9 to a chop (who owns about 20% of the pot anyway, and more if it's a hand like red QJ)

[steveyz]

Bet, fold to a check-raise. Check through the river if he calls unless you improve.

[hillbilly]

preflop:

i'm all for mixing it up, but with no reads on anyone or a specific metagame strategy in mind, i think you are going uphill playing this small pair against a raise here, even in this spot with position.

why get involved? especially in a full game? if it was short-handed, yes you are going to have to start playing in these spots but i would watch a few rounds and get a line on how my opponents play and have specific reasons for putting alot of chips in the pot in marginal spots.

postflop: well you are headsup, with position, with a pair. i guess no one will be suprised my plan is to check behind on the turn and call a bet on the river

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have any data on this player and I just joined the table two hands ago.

I threebet a CO raiser with 55 from the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

I'd have folded this preflop. I wouldn't know enough about this player or the players behind me to want to try this yet.

b

[Nate tha' Great]

Yeah, bet.

He'll potentially fold a few hands incorrectly like 77 without a club or something like AJ/AQ without a club that is drawing very live against you (10 outs). There's an outside chance that he check-raises with a worse hand but most of his check-raises will be legit and even his semibluffs will have a ton of outs against you anyway.

[Michael Davis]

Alright guys, I didn't really want to discuss preflop, but I didn't expect advice to fold. I am surprised that people would do this. I would usually threebet from the SB with this hand, and the situation is FAR better here.

Sure you could make some sort of argument about being an 11-9 favorite at best and sometimes being in real trouble, but these situations don't run hot&cold; I'll frequently get my opponent to fold before the river, I'll occasionally get him to fold a better hand, and sometimes I'll hit a set and go off for a bunch of bets. The chance that both blinds fold to threebet is really high in this game, IMO. I think it's clearly wrong to fold this hand.

-Michael

[bicyclekick]

I like the pf 3 bet and I bet that turn.

[bernie]

So you would routinely 3 bet this preflop with 22 against unknowns also?

b

[Michael Davis]

Yes.

-Michael

[bernie]

The CO is openraising? Right?

Then it makes much more sense. For some reason I thought there was someone in before the CO and the flop went 3-way.

Sorry 'bout that.

Yes, bet the turn. If you call a raise, you're going to showdown.

b

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet, fold to a check-raise. Check through the river if he calls unless you improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

perfect

[ggbman]

Bet the turn and fold to a checkraise. If he calls, check behind any river.

[Michael Davis]

OK, one more thing as a general response. If I bet this turn and it gets checked to me on the river, assuming a nonthreatening non-club hits, I think it's a big mistake not to bet, for value.

-Michael

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, one more thing as a general response. If I bet this turn and it gets checked to me on the river, assuming a nonthreatening non-club hits, I think it's a big mistake not to bet, for value.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Only against a bad player who will call with ace high. if he's not a showdown monkey i'm not betting. No way.

[obi---one]

On party, with the majority of opponents i would check and call a bet from non ace non club card. I think you gain the most from this line since so many players will bluff the last card and gain you an extra bet. PLus, you protect yourself from getting bluffed out of the pot and get to see a showdown for the same price. And, I don't think you are getting better hands to fold.

[BradL]

Bet and take a free showdown, fold to a checkraise. Checking through giving him free draw is a big mistake imo.

-Brad

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
i would check and call a bet from non ace non club card.

[/ QUOTE ]

This allows every hand he may hold that you currently beat to draw for free, this is a big mistake imo.

-Brad

[BradL]

I like the preflop 3bet, especially with position.

-Brad

[Michael Davis]

Alright, but let's say this: The guy checks to me on the turn and just calls when the K of clubs hit. An offsuit deuce hits the river and he checks to me. Even if the most likely result by far is my opponent folding (it is), I still think I'm ahead more often when I get called on the river. What can he have here but ace high? And if he has a mid pocket pair, there's enough chance he folds sommething like 77 with a club to warrant a bet. I think it's pretty obvious at this point my opponent has very little, and I do expect to get calls from ace high sometimes.

-Michael

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

I'm not so sure I like your three bet with the fives. You may want to look at Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney where he talks about this kind of play. But given that you made it, you absolutley have to bet the turn. If you happen to have the best hand, you can't let a free card come off to beat you. Plus if you now check, you'll have to call a river bet because of the size of the pot anyway.

best wishes,
Mason

[Michael Davis]

I'm familiar with Feeney's idea that some "good" players are overusing the threebet with a small pair play. However, I assumed that this would not refer to a situation where the CO is openraising at a Party Poker 15-30 game, where blindstealing is ubiquitous, the holdings often light, and the blinds generally tight.

-Michael

[Jeff W]

I think this attitude might be a holdover from your $5/10 6-max play. I too find myself betting any pair on the river in position in that game.

I haven't played in the 15/30 full, so I can't tell you whether or not your instinct is good in that game.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
where blindstealing is ubiquitous, the holdings often light

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
and the blinds generally tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a different 15/30 i'm playing.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
and the blinds generally tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

change that to generally super loose.

[mmcd]

Party Poker 15-30 game, where blindstealing is ubiquitous, the holdings often light, and the blinds generally tight

I think you got the 15 game mixed up with the 30 game.

[rory]

I like betting the turn here because you can easily fold to a raise.

I don't really like making these small pair isolation plays though, especially if you have just joined the table. Maybe the guy is a total rock, or a really good player, or a maniac or loves to bluff. Maybe the blinds love to defend and will call so you are playing a 3 way pot with 55 instead of heads up. There are too many ways to get screwed doing this because you have no information about the table, so just dump it until you have a few orbits at the table under your belt and a handle at what is going on.

[DeezNutz3]

I don't like this line one bit, bet that turn/fold to a CR and take a free showdown.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, one more thing as a general response. If I bet this turn and it gets checked to me on the river, assuming a nonthreatening non-club hits, I think it's a big mistake not to bet, for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are value-betting the river, you have made a mistake somewhere in the hand. Without knowing the opponent, I can't say where. But there are only two possibilities. One is that this is sort of opponent against whom it is incorrect to value bet the river. If that is the case, you clearly are making a mistake by value-betting the river. The other possibility is that this an opponent so tenacious that you would be wrong to check down the river. In that case you still misplaed the hand because against such an opponent you shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. I'm only three-betting a baby pair against someone who will give up postflop when the board doesn't help him. Someone who will call down with ace high is doing the correct thing given my holding and thus I wanted have wanted to get involved with him in the first place.

I'm more receptive to the idea of three-betting small pairs than some of the other respondents, but I only do it against people who give up too easily postflop. For me, that frequently means that I would actually rather three-bet someone who opened from earlier position than the CO because there is less of a steal-resteal psychology where a guy with AT feels he has to go all the way no matter what comes (although I still would want for me to be on the button, for obvious reason).