Changing your NL strategy for the new breed of nl fish?

[Kraqer]

Hello, I am a local player who frequents the NL ring game of las vegas NV, my typical stops are the 2-4 mandalay and the 2-5 at the bell. I consider myself a tight agressive player(dosnt everyone) I rarely call raises and get super agressive with my big hands QQ+. I used to be able to kill these games with what I consider normal tricky agressive play. But the changing face of these games lately is really starting to frustrate me. Knowing I am going to get called in 5 spots with 10x the BB raises is not healthy for my big pairs, and im thinking I need to adjust my stategy. I am ready to completely remove the "trickiness" from my game, No raising in position with medicore hands anymore, no raising with medium pairs to isolate, no more trying to "outplay" my oppenents with rags and I rarely bluff anymore. I am ready to completely change my NL strategy to a more "limp and punish" type mentality. That is, limp more than 90% of the time, and try to punish the caling stations in an unraised pot when I catch. (2 pair or better) it seems is needed versus my typical field of opponents). in Short, I am removing the "art" from my NL game, no more playing the player, not more outplaying, strickly playing the cards in a more limit fashion style. Does anyone have any comments to add to this? or are familiar with the games i frequent? Does anyone agree? is anyone else having trouble adapting to the changing face of NL holdem?

[kylma]

How about raising 15x BB then.. if still 4 callers, 20x BB..and so on.. repeat till you're happy. Maybe they call all those raises so you can go all in preflop and make tons of money

[AncientPC]

With a hand like QQ, you are most likely ahead of every hand that limped and most of the hands that people are raising with.

I have also adopted fimbulwinter's aggressive play. If you're holding a big pocket pair, and there are a lot of limpers I have no problem with open raising to 10BB or greater. Many times I have reraised pre-flop with a big pocket pair to 20BB, and people still call trying to hit their set.

[grouchie]

i need to work on my aggression.
This is something I need to start incorporating into my game.

[Mike Gallo]

Changing your NL strategy for the new breed of nl fish?

Kettle/Pot black

[jhall23]

I have also found tons of people doing this as well. They just have no clue how to take their own stack size into consideration. Not quite the same, but I see tons of people at the 25NL games at PP and UB make odd PF calls. It amazes me how a 5 dollar stack can call a 2 dollar PF raise and then fold to a bet on the flop, but they keep doing it. Gambol up I suppose /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[AncientPC]

Because they're not thinking "it's 4BB", they're thinking "it's only $2".

[tek]

Krager, you got mail.

[fimbulwinter]

careful, he'll seduce you with a cocktail of passive play, ABC logic and sweet wine spritzer; all you'll have in the morning is a massive headache and the ringing sound of check/fold, check/fold, check/fold echoing in your ears...

fim

[tek]

LOL.

What I have actually said is to play weak tight PF and aggressive (raise or fold) on the flop and beyond if you connect. I've also said that slowplaying non-nuts and bluffing is dangerous.

Here are the articles I wrote awhile back in Small Stakes:

Zen and the Art of small stakes NL Cash Games by tek

First, what is Zen? You can read books on Zen until you are blue in the face and not know what they are babbling about.

Here it is in a nutshell. Think about the Samurai Warriors of Japan from the 1500-1800’s. They roamed around protecting their king. It was like the Highlander movies and TV shows. They had big swords and when they came upon an enemy, it was heads’ up to the death. The Ultimate in All In action! Somebody was going to bust out with their head rolling downhill. They could not afford to think about the argument this morning with their chick, bills they have to pay, kids, car repairs, future goals, etc. They had to be in the moment now, period.

Now, how does this apply to NL cash games? You have to be in the moment there too. You don’t think about the past. You don’t think about the future (slow-playing or building pots). The goal is to win each pot at the first moment you are able to. I should mention that I play $1/2 $200 live NL cash games.

If you slow-play anything but the absolute nuts, someone WILL suck out on you.

Don’t worry, there will be action and pots will be built if you bet out and/or raise just like in limit games.

So just focus on your hand now and how it connects with the flop. If you hit the flop, bet it hard. Don’t worry about “losing customers”. Just get the pot ASAP.

The best strategy for NL cash games is Tight Weak preflop and Aggressive on the flop and later. The blinds are so cheap that you can fold every hand for two hours and only be out $24…And you have all night to hit big hands with a big pots.

Limp to the flop. Group 1 hands might be worth $6-10 preflop. Everything else, call the BB. At the NL tables I’m at (and this should apply to yours too), after the first couple of orbits things will settle down preflop. As soon as a couple players start calling the BB and fold to a PFR, the raisers will learn that they will have to be content with picking up a few yellows OR they can call the BB like the rest of you and see the flop.

Connect with the flop and bet out or raise hard, or fold. (But if you are drawing to a straight or flush and can see the turn or river cheap, great--and if you hit, then bet it). The word cheap is used relatively speaking and will depend on your table. The point is, when you make your hand then bet hard. If someone is betting hard against your second best or un-made drawing hand, lean towards folding.

Think like the Samurai. They went in when they had the best of it and ran when they didn’t. They didn’t get second chances…


A word about bluffing. Don’t. There are too many fish swimming in each aquarium that don’t have the ability to “put you on” what you (falsely) represent. They will call you. They will beat you. One bluff called and you are a dead Samurai.

In summary, I am advocating not gambling. Yes, you could call other players’ bluffs and risk a stack or two. Yes, you could bluff and risk being called. Yes, you could gamboool it up on marginal starters and risky draws. And yes, you could slow-play and give the fish a free card to suck out on you. But if you think like a Samurai, you will play Tight Aggressive on the flop and beyond, connect cheap and bet hard and take the pots down ASAP thus adding to your war-chest and table image.

If you are running well, you can slide that up. What I am saying is I will pay more to see the flop with Group 1, but I don't want to get pot committed and have a garbage flop beat me with good cards.

Group 2 down, I want to see the flop even cheaper.

Now, once I hit the flop and feel that I have the best hand, I want to bet hard to protect that hand. If someone goes over the top, I would consider that in the category of "falling into my trap". In other words, if they fold you win and if they raise you win more.

If the flop gives you a draw, then you have to evaluate how much gambling you wish to do, because that is what you are now doing. And that is beyond the scope of my article. As far as letting garbage hands in preflop, that's ok. They are the ones who will pay you when you hit the flop. Or they will be the ones to fight amongst each other when you fold after not hitting the flop.

What I am advocating is folding A LOT. At $1/2 you can fold every hand for $12 an hour max. Getting cheap flops is easy and crucial. You can make your coin on the flop when you connect and put the hammer down.

I've learned from the stock market and playing NL tournaments that Greed Kills. I would rather take down a pot with whatever is in it with what I believe is the best hand (such as top two pair with no straight or flush possibility) rather than let someone draw out on a possibly bigger pot on a later street.

I've applied the greed kills concept to NL cash games and I might add, life in general. It may sound like a pussy strategy, but I want the money or whatever the situation is paying off with.

Glamor-seekers and Fancy Play Aficionados can run take their chances, but again, that is a different subject.









Creating a hybrid weak-tight/tight aggressive approach to small stakes NL cash games by tek

In a previous article (Zen and the Art of Small Stakes NL Cash Games) I wrote about limping to the flop and then betting aggressively if you connect. I said to be tight aggressive when I was actually advocating a weak-tight approach pre-flop that becomes aggressive only when the hand develops on the flop or later--otherwise it becomes a fold. I should mention again that I play $1/2 $200 live NL cash games.

In this article I want to defend the weak tight approach used early in a hand. Many people talk about weak tight like it’s a disease. It is a tool, just like tight aggressive, loose passive and loose aggressive. A screw driver is for tightening screws and opening paint cans. A hammer is for pounding nails and pounding projects that just can’t be fixed…

The four categories of poker listed above are tools of sorts too. Loose passive is generally a bad tool. You go in with marginal hands and call allowing everyone else to stay in and beat you.

Weak tight should be thought of in the same way as a lion or tiger hunting. They crouch in foliage while a herd of gazelle or whatever approaches. They identify an old, young and/or sick member of the herd and lunge when they have a lock. They don’t just charge out willy-nilly at the first sight of the herd.

In baby NL cash games the same approach should be taken. See the hand develop cheaply. When you connect you can either bet and know a tight player with second best hand will bet or raise or you can go over the top of a betting LAG. A couple of big hands plus a few moderate pots each night and you are in business.

Examples: You have pocket pairs and want to flop a set. At 8-1, you need to see the flop cheap-not raise it preflop only to see overcards, straight draws or flush draws instead of a matching card to your pair. You have connectors. You need multiway pot-building. No preflop raise here. Group 1 and 2 hands don’t always connect with the flop. And you can’t just raise preflop with these or you will be too predictable, so you limp with them more than raise. You can make up for light preflop action on the flop and turn—it’s No Limit…

Some starting hands do require you to occasionally raise or reraise pre flop and continue the momentum (tight aggressive). And a few semi-bluff advertising plays are necessary to mix up your play get action. Also, when you are playing with a rack or two of OPM (other peoples’ money), you can selectively toy with LAG play.

Waiting in the brush (weak tight) until you have a monster and a LAG bets big and overextends himself is a valid course of action—not the negative behavior that many make it out to be.

This is a "start-out" for each night. When you have two or more racks, my strategy calls for more aggression on the tight side and also Lag play increasing with the level of OPM you are achieving.


My view is that one uses a range of play beginning by being defensive with your buy-in (weak-tight), but increasing to tight aggressive and then LAG.

Just as the table begins to see you a passive rock you are turning up the heat with their chips. As you begin to change gears and play between W-T, TAG and LAG they will become very fearful of you yet give you action. You still control what hands you play, yet you are giving yourself more leeway to hit less rockish hands.

I would also like to point out that (at least at the cardroom I play at, and I would like to hear if anyone notices the same thing at theirs) after a couple of orbits the LAGs are 'trained' to reduce their PFR's by players like me. They learn that they won't get action if guys like me keep folding preflop.

At this point the whole table calls the BB and we see the flop. Now with the limp-to-the flop problem taken care of, it just becomes a matter of getting a great hand against a LAG semi-bluff for a couple of big payoffs plus some medium size pots with some TAG play and semi-bluffs ourselves.

And again, the more chips we get and the more pots we win, we (the tighter guys at the table who incidentally play against LAGs more than each other) the more LAGgish (within reason we can go).

You'll win fewer pots, but they will be bigger. And the point is to win more money not more pots. There's always LAG's who will bet 30-40 on the flop. Another LAG and/or a short-stack player will raise. You can THEN go over the top with a monster.

To sum up:

1) See the flop cheap. Either the table will gravitate to calling the BB or you can just call small PFR's.

2) If you connect on the flop bet out utg or raise/reraise and take the pot. If you don't connect, then fold.

3)This is a "start-out" strategy for each night. When you have two or more racks, my strategy calls for more aggression on the tight side and also Lag play increasing with the level of OPM you are achieving.

My view is that one uses a range of play beginning by being defensive with your buy-in preflop, aggressively on the flop but adding some tight aggressive and LAG play.


Just as the table begins to see you a passive rock you are turning up the heat with their chips. As you begin to change gears and play between W-T, TAG and LAG they will become very fearful of you yet give you action. You still control what hands you play, yet you are giving yourself more leeway to hit less rockish hands.

[DoomSlice]

And when people catch on and start taking your bets/raises seriously... then what? You get to win 1.5BB per hand until someone catches on to that, and then you're back to where you start.

[fimbulwinter]

i know. i made the mistake of reading them and wasting my time, along with most of the posters on this board, debunking all the crap contained within.

fim

[grouchie]

This is pretty much the way I tend to play live.

People usually will not catch on very well, and most of the time you really only have to look out for certain people.
But, you, being a smart poker player, know which players are observant and which players to avoid.

Now, if someone does end up calling you do and you are forced to expose a bluff, that is not necessarily a bad thing.

When you have the goods and are in a hand with that guy again, you bet and play the hand the exact same way and you will get paid off even better.

It becaomes a great game of cat and mouse really.

[Mike Gallo]

Awesome response.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
When you have the goods and are in a hand with that guy again, you bet and play the hand the exact same way and you will get paid off even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless they catch a runner runner flush to beat your flopped set. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[boarder]

[ QUOTE ]
How about raising 15x BB then.. if still 4 callers, 20x BB..and so on.. repeat till you're happy. Maybe they call all those raises so you can go all in preflop and make tons of money

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I read some where that if you raise a substantial amount preflop the only hands that will generally call you are the hands that have you dominated?

[zaxx19]

And when people catch on and start taking your bets/raises seriously... then what? You get to win 1.5BB per hand until someone catches on to that, and then you're back to where you start.

If you are online how about changing tables...

If you are live how about taking your profit and leaving...then coming back tommorow when the new crop of WPT "I love to overplay AK-AQ-AJ and any 2 suited" roll into the casino.

Its really not that difficult to beat SS NLH games....it might not be the sexiest or most advanced mode of play...but then again if you are so sophisticated why waste your time in a SS game?

[JonnyKK]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I read some where that if you raise a substantial amount preflop the only hands that will generally call you are the hands that have you dominated?


[/ QUOTE ]

You would think this to be the case. Last nite playing live 100NL, had AA on the button. Pre-flop raise to 20$, folded around to the guy on my right who calls, flop comes rags (to me at least), he bets out 20, me thinking he's taking a shot at the pot, I push, he calls, he flips over 7c,9c for the strait on the flop. Generally tho, this situation has been netting me some nice pots. Dunno if I can call that a bad beat, but I knew I had to get all my chips in the middle with what I thought would be the best hand.

[meow_meow]

I've started playing this way in the 100NL 6max. tight/passive preflop, more aggressive later. I end up with a VPIP around 20-22, and a PFR around 4-6. Sample size is too small so far to know how it's going to work out, but one thing that worries me is that when I filter my PT database for VPIP<25, PFR<7 (min 100 hands), I get really terrible results (worse than for vpip>50). Now, there is going to be some bias in these numbers from players who just weren't catching cards during the sample, but in total these players are losing >13BB/100...
Very few of the players in my database play this way.

One good thing about playing this way is that it makes it easy to 6-table. I know cv is that multi-tabling NL is a bad idea, but playerview helps with the reads, and the action is only about 2/3 as fast as limit 6-max...

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Knowing I am going to get called in 5 spots with 10x the BB raises is not healthy for my big pairs

[/ QUOTE ]

are you out of your mind?