KQs in MP

[jskills]

Villan is solid player from initial read. Any thoughts on my calling the flop here? What do you put villan on?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (13.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

[bigmac366]

looks good but i might check through the river. someone could easily have two pair due to the coordinated nature of the board, and they probably wont fold it.

[DeathDonkey]

My initial thought is your flop call sucks. Playing my best this is an easy preflop fold. Good river bet.

-DeathDonkey

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
My initial thought is your flop call sucks. Playing my best this is an easy preflop fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strong words no? What's wrong with calling a preflop raise with KQs in MP? Some people even call a preflop raise with that hand UTG+1 ... It may be your opinion to fold it, but either way, it's not a definitive enough situation to just say the play sucked.

[DeathDonkey]

You said: "Any thoughts on my calling the flop here?"

I said: "My initial thought is your flop call sucks"

You said: "it's not a definitive enough situation to just say the play sucked."

I didn't say the play sucked, I said the flop call sucked. I also said I would fold preflop if I were in maximum solid/tight mode. On the flop you have dubious overcards, no draws but a backdoor straight miracle draw, and you might hit your card and lose even more (say to AK/AQ or something).

I suppose you coldcalled preflop because of your strong multiway type of hand which will be fine for 2 bets assuming a lot of competition (read: many to pay you off when you flop well). But you didn't flop well and you kept going. Just from the action it looks like you got lucky against AJ, but its telling that that is the only hand I can think of that you actually beat here.

-DeathDonkey

[yellowjack]

If Villan is a solid player you are behind every hand he might raise with UTG except for JJ (AA/KK/QQ/AKs/AKo/AQo). Fold this preflop.

He bets out the flop and even if he doesn't have an overpair your outs are almost definitely not clean; fold the flop.

The Q may have saved you but I wouldn't raise here. If he missed with AK, he would have checked the turn. In deciding to bet the turn, he could have AA/KK/AQ/JJ, all but one of which you are behind.

River is a J, you are behind every hand that a solid player would raise UTG with imaginable. Fold.

[yellowjack]

But would a solid player raise UTG w/ AJ? Maybe AJs, but that is a 1 in 15 chance (AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ/AJs and not AJo imo).

I agree with your post, and didn't even think of cold-calling for multiway action.

[jskills]

Well most of you posters were correct on my hand being weak preflop and to call the flop bet as well.

Villan held TT.

Thanks.

[jskills]

I still think calling preflop was correct.

But I'll have to agree with you on everything else. Thx.

[Entity]

I'd fold preflop. I don't think coldcalling is a huge error when you can get away from tricky situations postflop (I'd prefer a more multiway situation as you still have players to act after you and you don't have many people trapped in between), but when you play postflop like this routinely, coldcalling preflop is definitely -EV.

[Shillx]

What hand do we beat anywhere in this hand?

Fold preflop, fold the flop. I would check the river behind.

Brad

[DeathDonkey]

This is wrong. You (a presumably solid player) should be raising UTG with AJs and AJo, hands you didn't mention like KQo, KJs, QJs (maybe), TT (as this player did), 99 maybe...

-DeathDonkey

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
But would a solid player raise UTG w/ AJ? Maybe AJs, but that is a 1 in 15 chance (AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ/AJs and not AJo imo).

I agree with your post, and didn't even think of cold-calling for multiway action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who thinks that raising UTG with AJo is wrong, isn't a very solid player. Now if they actually do it or not is a different matter. The only "wrong" play to make with AJo UTG is to fold. Limping/raising has been debated many times and it really depends on the game conditions. Always rasing can't be too bad of a strategy though.

Brad