BB special

[maryfield48]

Only had a handful of hands with Villain - he saw half the flops while at the table. Never PFR'ed.

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (2 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Question is about the flop play. I called so I could pop the turn. Anybody think that's horrible?

[brettbrettr]

Hmm, I'm not sure I raise the river here after raising the turn. Did he have a better 2 pair?

[Nick C]

Even though a pair is a good hand in SB versus BB encounters, I don't think I would raise the turn unimproved.

I would bet if checked to, though, most likely planning to fold to a checkraise.

If SB was aggressive postflop and liked to bluff and semi-bluff, then I think raising the turn unimproved becomes a little more attractive.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though a pair is a good hand in SB versus BB encounters, I don't think I would raise the turn unimproved.

I would bet if checked to, though, most likely planning to fold to a checkraise.

If SB was aggressive postflop and liked to bluff and semi-bluff, then I think raising the turn unimproved becomes a little more attractive.

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn improved me to 2 pair.

[deadmunny]

Honestly? I am folding the flop........ No flush draw, No str8 draw, bottom pair with crap kicker? I might have the best hand but the pot is small, only the blinds called, I would not fight over it.

Regards D

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn improved me to 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that. I think the turn raise is good.

When I read your original post, though, my impression was that your plan on the flop was to call and then raise the turn. But maybe I misunderstood you.

Edited to add: In my initial response, I was talking about what I'd do on the turn if I still only had a pair of 3's.

[maryfield48]

Ok sorry - I see what you're saying Nick. And you were right, that was the plan, depending on what the turn was. If it was lower than T I planned to raise the turn.

Sorry I lost track of my own thread

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Question is about the flop play. I called so I could pop the turn. Anybody think that's horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's horrible unless you know he'll fold a 6-outer sometimes. Also, people who rarely raise preflop are rarely postflop lags. This makes me think he has you beat on the flop.

Turn and river look good though.

Krishan

[sublime]

Question is about the flop play. I called so I could pop the turn. Anybody think that's horrible?

i would call a turn bet unimproved and bet if checked to. raising is a tad overaggressive IMO.

i am not sure i like the river raise that much, if you get 3-bet you will call and when you are ahead you only win one bet.

[private joker]

I'd fold this flop too. You've put zero bets voluntarily into this pot, and its size is $4. The small blind bets into you and you've got bottom pair. There's a good chance it's the best hand, but more often than not it will become the second best hand by showdown time. If you want to take it down before he improves to a better pair, raise the flop and hope he check-folds the turn.

But why bother? Any two random cards figure to pair up on a 5-card community board about 50% of the time. That's why 99 vs. AK is a "coin flip." Either the A or the K will pair half the time, beating the 99. The other half, they won't. Consider your hand -- you made a pair on the flop, but unless he has pocket 2's, he's 50% to either have a pair already or make one by the river -- and when he does, it's bound to be better than 3's. If he has a pair on the flop, you have 5 outs heads up. Pick your battles.

All of this nonsense to say you still have a sh[/i]itty hand. 73s, flopped bottom pair. Whoop-de-doo. Fold the flop and move on to the next hand.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
The small blind bets into you and you've got bottom pair. There's a good chance it's the best hand, but more often than not it will become the second best hand by showdown time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true that if SB has overcard plus a flush draw or overcards plus an OESD that the hand is approximately a coin-flip on the flop, but if SB has less than that, Hero is a favorite. Plus, there is some money (though not much) already in the pot to think about.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to take it down before he improves to a better pair, raise the flop and hope he check-folds the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This could be a good idea, but I'd like it better if SB couldn't have either a better hand or a worse hand worth calling the flop raise with (and we don't know which it is).

[ QUOTE ]
But why bother? Any two random cards figure to pair up on a 5-card community board about 50% of the time. That's why 99 vs. AK is a "coin flip." Either the A or the K will pair half the time, beating the 99. The other half, they won't. Consider your hand -- you made a pair on the flop, but unless he has pocket 2's, he's 50% to either have a pair already or make one by the river -- and when he does, it's bound to be better than 3's. If he has a pair on the flop, you have 5 outs heads up. Pick your battles.

All of this nonsense to say you still have a sh[/i]itty hand. 73s, flopped bottom pair. Whoop-de-doo. Fold the flop and move on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero already flopped a pair, though, which roughly 50 percent of the time will be enough. (The fact that Hero got bet into on the flop does cut into this "50 percent of the time it'll be enough" idea somewhat, I'll admit. Obviously, Hero could be the one who's drawing.) And the pot's not empty.

I don't know what's best on this flop, but I have been influenced by StellarWind's ideas regarding SB vs. BB encounters and have gotten more stubborn in such battles. That doesn't mean I put a lot of raises in with bottom pair very often, but I don't fold as quickly as I used to either.

It is possible, however, that I'm misapplying what StellarWind has written, as it relates to this hand.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question is about the flop play. I called so I could pop the turn. Anybody think that's horrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's horrible unless you know he'll fold a 6-outer sometimes. Also, people who rarely raise preflop are rarely postflop lags. This makes me think he has you beat on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you have to be a lag to bet this flop. I think he knows I saw the flop for free, so could have any two, and I think most players with overcards in this situation will toss out a SB.

But thinking about it since, if he bets again on the turn I might be less inclined to raise - betting again with no part of the board is not typical passive behaviour, even HU.

[Coachpoker]

Hi Mary,

I feel you took this hand a bit too far. Is there a particular reason you felt SB was weak on the flop? Why get carried away here with bottom pair weak kicker? There are so many other hands to get tricky with.

Still, if you are going to get tricky, raise the flop. You need to figure out where you are on the hand at the cheaper level. If he comes over the top, you can make a good case for folding. If he calls, see what develops.

But you indicated your plan all along was to raise the turn. What's that about? What could possibly come on the turn that would give you that much confidence? Any card except a 3 is questionable - including the 7.

[maryfield48]

Well, I've backed away from the raise the turn line. But I would definitely bet if checked to - and fold to a raise. I don't have a 'particular' reason other than that I had a pair heads-up, and I don't take SB's flop bet as indicative of strength. If he comes back and leads the turn, I think I toss it unimproved.

I may have had a subconscious read on SB, though. That happens to me sometimes. Or seems to. Might be post hoc rationalizing.