Rivered Top 2 after TAG preflop limp-reraise

[Freakin]

Villian is a thinking, somewhat trick 15.5/6.9/3 TAG. He pulled a stop & go w/ a flopped set against me till the river several hands before.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

I usually interpret l/r to be AA or KK

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Good flop, not enough equity against the narrow range of hands I have him on.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Good place for me after he called my raise.

River: (7.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>

Against KK I'm boned. Go for 3-bets, or call &amp; showdown?

Freakin

[BonJoviJones]

I think it's pretty close. AK is a pretty reasonable hand for him to have. AA/KK/QQ also make sense (though there is only one way to have QQ and 2 ways to have KK).

There are a bunch of ways he can have AA/AK.

I'd say it's (obviously) an easy not-fold, but probably not enough to 3bet, given that you have a decent chance of it getting capped back.

I'd like to hear a dissenting view though.

[Dead]

I 3bet this. Hero has a K and there is a K on board so the chances of his opponent having KK goes down a lot.

Hero beats both AA and AK.

QQ is unlikely because of the way villain played it.

I 3bet this river and call a cap.

Edit: I changed KK above to AK.

[Shillx]

Your flop check/turn raise makes no sense.

If he is betting the turn with AA/KK, you are losing on the raise. If he could have AK on the flop, you have 12 outs and a bet would be appropriate if he will check to you on 4th.

So I like the flop check (because of the trickyness factor and what he probably holds). Just call the turn. Just call the river (if a blank comes). Given that you hit a K, raise the river and call a 3-bet.

Brad

As the hand went down, just call the river check/raise. Anyone advocating a 3-bet needs to get their head checked.

[BonJoviJones]

Hmm... I think I'm putting him more strongly on AK as I continue to think about it.

Why so quiet on the flop? Betting the turn looks like AK just trying to pick it up. Probably puts you on just a Q and so when he spikes the K he wakes up.

I agree with Dead - 3 bet that.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3bet this. Hero has a K and there is a K on board so the chances of his opponent having KK goes down a lot.

Hero beats both AA and KK.

QQ is unlikely because of the way villain played it.

I 3bet this river and call a cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked, we aren't in very good shape against KK....

[BonJoviJones]

He almost certainly meant AK

[Entity]

I call the turn, then raise the river (and call a 3-bet).

[Dead]

Bingo.

Shill I meant AK.

We beat every reasonable hand except KK.

I think we can 3bet the river for value.

He played this hand like AK and not KK.

If I have KK here and get raised on the turn heads up I am 3betting it.

[Stuey]

I don't like being HU vs this guy to start he is to good. So this is what I would do.

Preflop: I limp, reasons-I feel the TAG could have me dominated and my KQs is reduced to winning by making a flush,str8 or 2pair. I also consider folding here if the players after me are tight. If the first limper was not so tight I would raise though.

Flop: I like it I bet. If he raises I call.

Turn: I like it I raise, and call a reraise. I don't want to be in a hand with this guy but once I am in it I play it win. I expect resistance from him he is good.

River: I prefer to make a flush but I still like my hand. I bet and I call his raise.

Don't be gentle I can take it. I need to know why my play is so bad. thx

[Shillx]

You got the river play right! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You like a flop bet? Meh. When a limp-reraiser checks the flop, you have to be very careful. While it wouldn't be horrible if we bet and go check/raised, I would rather not. You have to think he is trapping in this spot.

You like a turn raise? We are still way behind here. We have outs and we really would dislike a 3-bet in this spot. Just call. He is betting AK on this flop all day long imo.

Brad

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
You like a flop bet? Meh. When a limp-reraiser checks the flop, you have to be very careful. While it wouldn't be horrible if we bet and go check/raised, I would rather not. You have to think he is trapping in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I bet because I have a strong draw and if I don't bet it lets him think I have nothing. I bet to find out if the flop changed his mind about his hand. Could the reason we are facing so much aggresion in later rounds be caused by showing weakness on the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
You like a turn raise? We are still way behind here. We have outs and we really would dislike a 3-bet in this spot. Just call. He is betting AK on this flop all day long imo.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again I am trying to take the lead in this hand. This player will take over if I let him he is aggresive. I don't like being bullyed. This is a flaw I know.

I notice your advice is very good in the past. I admit I am wrong here. Thanks for the pointers. I am very interested in what you think of folding pre flop to a TAG limper. SSH says raise KQs but do we have to always? Why not pass on this hand?

[Shillx]

Just calling preflop seems like the best option to me. Folding this hand is clearly wrong. I would call in this spot almost everytime.

Brad

[Freakin]

No way I'm passing on a hand because a TAG limps in... he could have JTs, 22, any kind of crap. A limp UTG doesn't mean a limp-reraise, and if you play that way you're gonna lose money.

Freakin

[SteveL91]

Admittedly, I'm not that good at poker, but this hand just doesn't make sense for some reason.

Now, considering I have the benefit of hindsight, I'd say villain might have AK... but, why wouldn't he bet the flop? It's heads up, and his limp/re-raise wasn't capped. Given this, wouldn't he figure his hand to be best?

Considering the way the villain has played a past set, is it possible he flopped another set? I don't know that his stats would agree with him limp/re-raising say pocket 8's, but looking at the way the hand played out, I think it might be a valid possibility. His stats just appear to portray him as a rather aggressive player, and it appears he played this hand as anything but an aggressive player.

As I said, I'm not that great at the game, but I was thinking outloud.... always a dangerous thing. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DeathDonkey]

I would 3 bet the river. Results of the CAT scan are pending. Can't wait for the results.

-DeathDonkey

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
No way I'm passing on a hand because a TAG limps in... he could have JTs, 22, any kind of crap. A limp UTG doesn't mean a limp-reraise, and if you play that way you're gonna lose money

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to call because the first TAG could have me dominated. I want to fold if I feel the players behind me are tight and a late raise is going to leave me open to being dominated by them. It is clear I don't know how to play KQs from early/middle position. Thanks for posting the hand, it made me think. And the responses showed me why I am wrong. Now to change my actions. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

I want to call because the first TAG could have me dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck. Here's how most hands will go when a TAG limps in EP:

TAG limps, I raise KQs, or KQo, or whatever I'm raising.

Flop comes with whatever -- TAG doesn't flop his set or strong draw with his multiway hand he limped with. He folds. I win pot.

Don't be afraid to raise a good hand because a TAG limped in, folks. He will rarely have you dominated.

Rob

[Dead]

I think people are confusing TAG with tight-passive. Rocks sometimes limp with hands that we would always raise, like KQs and AJs.