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Irieguy
02-19-2005, 04:14 PM
Well, after finally beginning to pull myself out of a bad run the likes of which I had heretofore thought to be impossible; I feel I am as ready as ever to draft my definitive "bad run" post.

My profits are back to an acceptable level for 2005, but I must say that I had quite a bad start this year. I learned so much from 2+2 posters as I began playing SNGs regularly last year that I feel like I should "pay it forward" and share what I've learned about running badly.

To begin with, most players (especially new players) have a great deal of difficulty discriminating between common variance and a bonafide bad spell. The best way to differentiate between the two would probably be to pick some statistical thresholds and declare that anything above or below those thresholds are unlikely enough to warrant consideration for being particularly "lucky" or "unlucky" events. But running badly really has nothing to do with statistics... it's an emotional event. The fragile, twisted, neurotic mind of a SNG player cannot truly comprehend the implications of the metrics we discuss on this forum. Statistical perspective is a necessary component to a sound psyche, but it is not enough. Hopefully I can offer another type of perspective.

Running Bad

If you play SNGs regularly (at least 400 a month), there are certain things that will happen so frequently that you really will get used to them. A 100 SNG negative ROI run, for example. A 12 SNG OOTM streak. A 20 buy-in drop. These things happen so frequently that if you are able go 30-60 days without seeing at least one of them, you are lucky. So unless you are running worse than that, you really aren't running badly... you're just playing SNGs. If you exceed one of those markers, though, I think it's OK to accept the fact that you are running badly. Go ahead and post something. Cry. Break something. Yell at a loved one for no good reason. We are all human beings, so some indulgence must be taken in the name of misery. Do not torture yourself with the belief that such irrational behavior is not Zen. In fact, it is the third tenet of IrieZen philosophy (the obscure spritual fusion of rastafarianism and zen buddhism to which I subscribe):

"Let if flow. Then let it go."

But until your losing extends beyond 100 SNGs... until your losing streak surpasses 12 OOTM in a row... or until your bankroll hemorrhage exceeds 20 buy-ins, you aren't running bad. You're just playing SNGs. Just living, man. Grab a heineken, put your feet up, twist a fat one, look at your pathetic spreadsheet and laugh. Then log onto 2+2 and ruthlessly berate the newbie who authored the post "How can I lose 2 days in a row when my ROI was 47% over the past 72 SNGs?"

IT happens

Once you've truly entered the depths of a bad run, things actually ease up a bit. You've let it flow, and let it go, and you can comfortably settle into the rhythm of losing every 60-40 race for a week or so, and starting every session with a 10th place finish by getting aces or kings cracked. Then IT happens.

IT is that peculiar new level of running badly where you actually begin to develop paranormal powers. If your opponent needs precisely the 7 of clubs on the river to beat you, you will KNOW that the 7 of clubs is coming on the river. It's not pessimism, or selective memory, or anything like that. A luminous thread extending from your soul and enveloping the universe will resonate with the 7 of clubs. It's coming, and you know it. PartyPoker will pause an extra blink, as if to acknowledge the event. It's the electronic equivalent of Amarillo Slim winking at you before he slow rolls you in a low limit side game on day 27 of the WSOP.

When IT is happening, I sometimes revel in my new found psychic powers. If my wife is in the room, and my pocket kings are exposed against my opponents pocket 4's I will get her attention and say "watch, honey... a 4 will appear on this board." While my wife is pleased with the financial perks of my poker hobbie, she is much more impressed with my ability to declare the cards that will appear with 100% accuracy than she is with any ability I may have to play the right way. She doesn't beleive me when I tell her that the universe bestows upon us all brief periods of clairvoyance... she thinks it must be some form of legerdemain.

I don't know what IT is, or what causes IT, but IT happens. You no longer lose to overpairs. Your opponents will make a set at the minimum. They sometimes river quads when they don't even need it to win. You become particularly vulnerble to any hand with 2 gaps or less, because they are always live to a runner-runner straight. IT is what causes people to quit.

Which brings us to the second tenet of IrieZen philosophy:

"The universe will unfold as it should."

I'm not exactly sure what that means yet, but I think it has something to do with how you are supposed to handle IT.

That Which We Shall Not Speak Of

Then there is something so egregious, so horrifying, so odious that it shall not be given a name. I will mention it here, but I will never speak of it again.

It's origin is a simple statistical fact. If something is possible, it is possible for it to happen twice in a row.

Can a winning player have a 200-SNG stretch with a negative ROI? Anyone who's played more than a few thousand SNGs knows that this is possible. What if you had 2, 200-SNG losing stretches in a row? It gives me the chills just writing about it. This is the type of spell that can lead even the best player, with the soundest disposition into a psychological squalor from which he may never recover.

Anyways, it happens. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. The only thing that can save you is to adhere to the first and foremost tenet of IrieZen philosophy:

"Make yourself comfortable, and ride it out."

This means something different to everybody, but I will offer my own interpretation for what it's worth:

2 Dell 2001fps.
A papasan chair
A refrigerator full of Heineken
Ready access to Las Vegas lap artistry

Play the right way,

Irieguy

johnnybeef
02-19-2005, 04:17 PM
great post. thanks irie. i would like to add something though. when you are on what you believe is a bad run, it is imperative to review hh's. as irie probably knows by now /images/graemlins/wink.gif i recently went through a stretch of pushing as a heavy favorite, and consistenly came out a loser. because of all these bad beats it appeared to me that my losing streak was a result of bad luck. after a down swing of about 10 buyins, i decided to review a few tourney summaries in which i remembered getting crushed by a bad beat. much to my surprise i found that many of the bad beats i was suffering where when i was in the chip lead at or around 5 handed. i found that the reason i was losing was that after suffering all of these beats, i continued to play like the big stack (i.e. going over top of someone with a suited ace etc.) and THAT was what was keeping me out of the money. so my point in writing this is this: when in the middle of a downswing, it is absolutely essential to be on top of your game as many times you may have actually sprung a leak instead of being in a downswing. if you handle them correctly, downswings will enable you to be a much better player in the long run as they force you to improve your play.

Karak567
02-19-2005, 04:23 PM
Awesome post and it's a wakeup call to newbies like me who have yet to understand the concept of a true bad run.

breezeyo
02-19-2005, 04:26 PM
I was beginning to wonder where you had been the last couple of days....but now I know. It must have taken that long plus 2 refrigerators full of Heineken to draft this.

Nonetheless....good post. Dont get too excited about a long winning streak and dont get too down on a long losing one. Just play right and it all evens out.

raptor517
02-19-2005, 04:36 PM
i am currently on a streak of 321 sngs with a 0% roi. thats right. 321. i have played over 3k sngs with 18% + roi. now, granted, i can knock out 321 in a few days with 8 tabling, so it hasnt gone on for a month or anything, but i have been incredibly distressed at the waste of time it has been to play 321 sngs and make ZERO profit. they talk about IT, and i know IT exists. when you bubble 5 times in a row just because you know your AJ will not beat the KQ. ever. or when your AK HAS to lose to the 44 that calls you push. IT is there. always haunting you. therefore, what will happen tonight, is i will play 100 more sngs, and IT will die. IT will be overcome. I, me, the nurselady, the bebop, the raptor, will be victorious once again.

Irieguy
02-19-2005, 05:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Dont get too excited about a long winning streak and dont get too down on a long losing one. Just play right and it all evens out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of a conversation at my table during one of the 5-Diamond events at the Bellagio in December.

Phil Helmuth: "You know guys, I wish the cards would just break even for a few minutes..."

Layne Flack (from behind a mountain of chips): "God, I don't. If the cards break even, I'm dead."

Irieguy

SuitedSixes
02-19-2005, 06:04 PM
Nicely done, Irieguy.

Since I am over a week into my "don't look at the spreadsheet" campaign, I will share my own philosophy . . .

"Ignorance is bliss."

TheAmp
02-19-2005, 06:15 PM
Thanks Irie,

That's the most generous post I EVER read.

You should consider publishing a hard cover book with your posts.

Can I order two copies?
Will you accept netteller or party poker dollars?

lacky
02-19-2005, 06:18 PM
my wife and your wife should get together. they'd have alot in common.

microbet
02-19-2005, 06:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Dont get too excited about a long winning streak and dont get too down on a long losing one.

[/ QUOTE ]

"You're losin' all your highs and lows
Ain't it funny how the feeling goes away?

Desperado, why don't you come to your senses? "

Phoenix1010
02-19-2005, 06:50 PM
Thank you for making this excellent post. It's a big help, and I'll be sure to refer to it during my next downswing. I think it's stuff we all know, but it helps to see it written out, especially from a respected player.

Very funny to find out that other people experience "IT." And here I thought I was special for knowing when the bad beats are coming /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Thanks again.
Regards,
Steve

se2schul
02-19-2005, 07:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ready access to Las Vegas lap artistry

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I ask what this is?
ss

ilya
02-19-2005, 07:12 PM
Thanks, Irie.

If I had to add something, I would say: don't spend a lot of money on any one mouse.

se2schul
02-19-2005, 07:13 PM
Excellent post. I thought that I had experienced one of those streaks by losing my first 38 buyins at $5+1, but now I really dread IT now that I feel I'm doing well at other buyins.

ss

mackthefork
02-19-2005, 07:22 PM
Just thought I'd pop in and check out the single table forum, it was looking somewhat like a post-apocalyptic wasteland, deviod of anything but tumbleweed and horse-[censored] (should I fold aces here). Then this post comes onto the front page (I gotta stop judging a forum by its cover). Yet another classic post from Irie, well written, excellent content I especially like this bit

[ QUOTE ]
A luminous thread extending from your soul and enveloping the universe will resonate with the 7 of clubs. It's coming, and you know it. PartyPoker will pause an extra blink, as if to acknowledge the event.

[/ QUOTE ]

this really happens, yes you better believe it, I have seen it with my own eyes, every time a 2 or 3 outer is going to hit. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

On how bad it could get, there is no limit, the odds just get longer each time the streak is lengthened, the poker gods are out to get anyone at anytime indiscriminately, one guy is playing now his 300th sng without getting in the money and hes a long term 40% ROI winner, of course he'll never know, he gives up tommorrow.

Be lucky all, hope it never happens to any of you.

Regards and best wishes Mack

The Yugoslavian
02-19-2005, 07:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ready access to Las Vegas lap artistry

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I ask what this is?
ss

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I'm hoping to find out in March, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

kyro
02-19-2005, 07:33 PM
does this mean i should stop complaing about "the worst run i've ever been on"?

ok, i'll try.

Irieguy
02-19-2005, 07:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ready access to Las Vegas lap artistry

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I ask what this is?
ss

[/ QUOTE ]

This was not meant to be a cryptic allusion. I'm talking about strippers. But when That Which We Shall Not Speak Of is happening, a high-quality lap dance transcends sexuality and consumerism and becomes a work of art. It should be appreciated and savored like a Monet, or a bottle of Opus 1 reserve...

Later, guys. I gotta go.

Irieguy

skipperbob
02-19-2005, 08:13 PM
The Man could win a Nobel Prize; He'd rather have a Heineken, a Dell 2001 and a lap dance /images/graemlins/confused.gifGo Figure

lacky
02-19-2005, 08:29 PM
sounds like he's got it right. you win a nobel prize they bug you for the rest of your life. give me anonumus pleasures anyday. yeah, i'd still take that wsop title though

skipperbob
02-19-2005, 10:13 PM
Yesterday I had to "close my eyes" several times

se2schul
02-19-2005, 10:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]

This was not meant to be a cryptic allusion. I'm talking about strippers. But when That Which We Shall Not Speak Of is happening, a high-quality lap dance transcends sexuality and consumerism and becomes a work of art. It should be appreciated and savored like a Monet, or a bottle of Opus 1 reserve...

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your style dude. Sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. It's just like the parts of university I have trouble remembering. Simple pleasures certainly are the best.

ss

microbet
02-19-2005, 11:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. It's just like the parts of university I have trouble remembering. Simple pleasures certainly are the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder what life would be like if sex were simple.

Dallara
02-20-2005, 12:15 AM
Excellent post Irie. If nothing else, it has encouraged me to get a Heineken rather than smash my mouse tonight.

imported_bingobazza
02-20-2005, 12:42 AM
Great post Irie....and very amusing. IT is **it, but **it happens. Since we have determined that the improbable is possble, (and actually quite likely) and that the alomst impossible is very probable over a long enough stretch...it would be interesting to see if anyone has re-thought their bankroll as a result of this thread?

BingoBazza

AtticusFinch
02-20-2005, 12:51 AM
The toughest part is wondering if you really are a winning player at all, or if your prior success was just an extended good streak. I'm sure with your experience Irie it's easier to be confident that you are a long time winner, but when you have less than 1k tourneys total under your belt, confidence lapses are harder to avoid. The worst part is they become self-fulfilling.

Apathy
02-20-2005, 05:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The toughest part is wondering if you really are a winning player at all, or if your prior success was just an extended good streak. I'm sure with your experience Irie it's easier to be confident that you are a long time winner, but when you have less than 1k tourneys total under your belt, confidence lapses are harder to avoid. The worst part is they become self-fulfilling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right this can be tough for the beginning player but any player that beats SNGs for a good amount devolps a pretty solid feel for whether they are beating the game or on some giant 'lucky' streak.

Also it should be noted that it is easier to go on a big winning streak then a losing one since losing streaks involve losing frequently to a few outers and winning streaks involve winning coinflips and having the best hand hold up.

This is a very funny and enjoyable thread... Thank you for sharing Irie, all of us have gone through something *like* this before and appreciate your insight, wisdom, and philsophy on the subject.

ilya
02-20-2005, 05:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Also it should be noted that it is easier to go on a big winning streak then a losing one...

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?? You mean your ITM is over 50%?

Apathy
02-20-2005, 06:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also it should be noted that it is easier to go on a big winning streak then a losing one...

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?? You mean your ITM is over 50%?

[/ QUOTE ]


Obviously i mean a losing streak in money terms over x number of sngs not an otm streak which would obviosly be greater then any itm streak.

Oh and P.S Do I really deserve this kind of sarcasm... I feel that I always *try* to make well thought out and helpful posts on this forum and that I have a good amount of knowledge about poker and especially about the party SNG game.

Maybe I am just taking offense becuase I'm drunk but what do I have to do to get some respect around here?

TheAmp
02-20-2005, 06:12 AM
This is also a good time to remind ourselves that variance is our best friend. Would the fish play without it?

Who said friends can't be a pain in the ass sometimes...

lorinda
02-20-2005, 06:49 AM
a pretty solid feel for whether they are beating the game or on some giant 'lucky' streak

It's not the feeling of "Was I a winner" that eats away your insides, it's the new feeling of "I laughed at those people who lost 20 buyins last week for being fishies... am I a fish now? am I? Did I always play the same? I think I did? ..... Why am I asking these questions, I'm obviously playing worse, is it bad enough to make me a losing player? Am I raising too often, I'm not only getting bad beats, but when I raise they have aces every time... I must be overpushing too early... maybe I need to get enough chips earlier to stand the bad beats so I can take two of them..... I'd like to ask a friend (who has lost for years) if I'm playing okay......."

Lori

dfscott
02-20-2005, 01:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what IT is, or what causes IT, but IT happens. You no longer lose to overpairs. Your opponents will make a set at the minimum. They sometimes river quads when they don't even need it to win. You become particularly vulnerble to any hand with 2 gaps or less, because they are always live to a runner-runner straight. IT is what causes people to quit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what happened to me at limit, but with a twist. After a year or so of generally successful play, I started losing. Not bad, but steadily. Hand after posted hand of people saying "yep, I would've played it the same way -- bad luck." Watching the board unfold got to be like fingernails on a chalkboard. Runner-runner beats became a way of life.

And then an interesting thing happened. I mechanically continued posting hands, but now people were saying, "hmmm... I'd think I'd fold to the flop/turn/river bet/raise" and "way too weak -- you must re-raise here." And I didn't notice anything different -- I think I was on long-term tilt. Back to the books didn't help and I couldn't seem to learn from my mistakes. I'd take a few days off, but they were just small breaks in the storm.

After tons and tons or reading, e-mail conversations with buddies, one-on-one hand reviews, I scratched and clawed to get my game back on track, and finally felt like I was getting it back together.

Then, the ultimate irony. I had finally started winning again (experiencing normal variance) when the night came when I sat down, started playing, and after about an orbit thought to myself, "damn, I hate this." I don't know if all the work to get my game back on track had soured me on the game or if I was just emotionally exhausted. In any case, even dragging the pots was no longer enjoyable, so I knew it was time to quit.

I wandered in the desert for a while, and eventually ended up here.

[ QUOTE ]
Which brings us to the second tenet of IrieZen philosophy:

"The universe will unfold as it should."

I'm not exactly sure what that means yet, but I think it has something to do with how you are supposed to handle IT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or to quote Buckaroo Banzai, "wherever you go, there you are."

Now that I'm playing SnGs, I'm much less knowledgeable about the game, making less money, and much more happy. I'm proud of my measely little 40% ITM/13% ROI and can end a session feeling comfortable, even if I haven't done that well. I may go back to limit some day, I may not . Who knows, maybe I'll meet up with IT again at the SnGs, and it may lead me to another destination, or back to limit. But until then, I'm content here.

In any case, thanks, Irieguy, for a very insightful post.

ilya
02-20-2005, 03:44 PM
Sorry man, my tone was out of line. My apologies.

Apathy
02-20-2005, 04:14 PM
no worries...

and I understand what you are saying lorinda, anyones confidence suffers at times no matter how good they are at what they do.

Even Hall of Fame bound sports proffesionals I'm sure doubt their ability at times of 'cold streak' where their numbers just aren't what they used to be. Not a perfect analogy, but you know what I mean.

That's what makes this thread and 2+2 so great. Not only can we come here to discuss poker strategy but also as a support group of sorts to encourage and build confidence when a great player is feeling down. During losing streaks of great magnitude its helpful to be reminded that you are a great player, otherwise your lack of confidence will lead to poorer play.

Irie, you ARE a great player.

skipperbob
02-20-2005, 09:22 PM
Great Post

Slim Pickens
02-21-2005, 12:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The toughest part is wondering if you really are a winning player at all, or if your prior success was just an extended good streak.

[/ QUOTE ]
My sentiments exactly, Atticus. I take comfort in the fact that my initial upswing will at least allow to continue to play this refreshingly addictive game for awhile at my current level.

To Irieguy, eastbay, AM, and the other apostles: I believe in what you have shown me, and I believe I now know the epiphany religious people must feel when they "see the light." That beautiful mix of triumph, hope, and fear must be what keeps them coming to my door at the exact instant I reach the bubble, and thinking it's one of my friends ringing the bell, call the big stack's all-in with 23o.

Slim