(Very) Live $20/40 Hand #1

[bobbyi]

I usually post $20/40 hands on the mid-stakes forum (example (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1744956&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)), but there are some days when the game plays much more like a 3/6 than like the Party 15/30 which is what everyone over there plays and every hand over there seems to end up getting analyzing in terms of that game (argh), so I think I may get more relevant feedback if post these here. To try not to bias the feedback I get, I'm not going to say what I think I did right and what I think I did wrong on these hands.

Game is very loose. Hands like 73s and 92o are dragging some big pots (from outside the blinds, otherwise I wouldn't mention it). There are several players who play any ace 100% of the time and much, much worse hands the majority of the time as well. The postflop play starts to resemble a classical mid-limit game slightly more, with a reasonable amount of check-raising, people who have some hand-reading ability, some good aggression on the turn (e.g., raising it when a pair picks up a flush draw), etc., but still generall quite loose.

Preflop: Everyone limps to me in the CO. I limp with J/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif. The button folds and the blinds come in. Eight to the flop for one bet.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The blinds check and UTG bets. He is loose and, while not a LAG, has a reasonable (maybe fairly normal) amount of aggression to him. Three people call and I raise. The blinds drop and UTG three-bets. All active players call. Five to the turn.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG bets and UTG+1 calls. UTG+1 is my only semi-reasonably decent opponent, although still loose. The other two players drop and I raise. UTG calls and UTG+1 three-bets. Call call.

River: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Check bet call fold.

All commments welcome.

[colgin]

I might not play JTo here but otherwise I play it the same way. I can't see laying down two pair in this spot but I suspect villain made a straight on the turn or slowplayed a flopped set.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I might not play JTo here

[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't like JTo (nor QTo, KTo or ATo), but with the entire world limping, me in late position and opponents who could be holding hands like 73, I really don't think folding is a reasonable option here. Raising is, however.

[BoxTree]

It is not reasonable to preflop raise JTo here.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not reasonable to preflop raise JTo here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in the cutoff, so raising will buy me the button fairly often. If I limp, the button will come in very frequently with the whole table limping to him. Against people playing total trash, JTo will win often enough that I'm not hurt much by having us all put an extra bet in preflop. Given that I am playing anyway, I think the small fraction of a bet that raising costs me (if that) may be worth it to by the button here. I'm not saying that raising is better than limping. Trying to get opinions on that is one of the reasons I posted the hand.

[bernie]

I wouldn't raise this preflop here. I want to see this flop as cheap as possible with an o/s hand like this.

b

[o0mr_bill0o]

I think i'd play it the exact same way.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see laying down two pair in this spot but I suspect villain made a straight on the turn or slowplayed a flopped set.

[/ QUOTE ]
Note that on the turn, unless he has a set of tens or jacks, I have four outs and the pot is large enough that I can profitably call to draw to that. Realistically, if I'm against a small set or Q9, I would consider this closer to being a three outer out of 42 unknown cards because it's very likely that one of my jacks is in UTG's hand, but I'm still getting the right price to draw if that's the case.

[krishanleong]

Looks fine. I was thinking as I was reading this is this might be a good spot to wait until the turn to raise as your hand is very vunerable and you won't force anyone out by raising the flop.

I like the turn and river.

Krishan

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks fine. I was thinking as I was reading this is this might be a good spot to wait until the turn to raise as your hand is very vunerable and you won't force anyone out by raising the flop.

I like the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your commments here are on point. I don't feel that I could have done anything different on the turn and river, although it obviously sucks to get three-bet here and be stuck calling when it's painfully obvious that I'm beaten. The reasons I posted the hand were to see whether this flop raise was a good idea and to see how many people would like the idea of raising preflop to buy the button. I hate JTo and rarely even play it, but with this many people in and me in the cutoff and the limpers likely to hold such awful hands, I don't think raising is out of the question, although I'm not sure if it's optimal.

[krishanleong]

I have never raised JTo to buy the button. I think it's too weak a hand against a large field for the button to be worth the investment.

Krishan

[bobbyi]

To the surprise of no one, UTG+1 had Q9o and dragged the pot.