small pocket pairs in EP

[DrewOnTilt]

Out of sheer curiosity, how much value am I giving up if I limp in from EP with a small pair and someone raises behind me?

I ask because in loose, ultra-passive games (5-6 to the flop and very little preflop raising), I will often limp from early position with any pair and fold if I don't spike a set (if the game is more aggressive I will fold the smaller pairs in EP). Every now and then, though, someone suprises me with a raise.

Let's say that I limp UTG with a pair of ducks, 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and one of the following happens:

1) I get three callers and someone raises. I'll call the raise, but does the raise make my limp a -EV play?

2) The player to my immediate left raises and everyone else folds. Obviously my preflop limp is now -EV since I am getting nowhere near 8.5:1 on the limp and raise. Should I fold here? This is rare, but it does happen on occasion.

Thoughts?

[Clarkmeister]

All I can tell you is I play any pair, any position in unraised pots in about 95% of the games I sit down in.

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say that I limp UTG with a pair of ducks, 2 2 , and one of the following happens:

1) I get three callers and someone raises. I'll call the raise, but does the raise make my limp a -EV play?

2) The player to my immediate left raises and everyone else folds. Obviously my preflop limp is now -EV since I am getting nowhere near 8.5:1 on the limp and raise. Should I fold here? This is rare, but it does happen on occasion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why does situation 2 necessarily make the limp -EV? I actually think this isn't a bad spot to be in. If the board comes all rags, how often do you think you're ahead of an aggressive PF raiser? The hands like AJ-AK,ATs-AKs,KJ,KQ really outweigh the pocket pairs beating you. You're probably a slight favorite over 60% of the hands that the PF raiser might have and there is some dead money with the blinds.

I've been calling hands like these down when no A,K and sometimes Q hits the board. Sometimes I like to c/r the turn to try and protect my weak hand and fold to a 3-bet, sometimes I just call it down.

Incidentally, and a little off-topic, I also take this approach in the small blind to any raise HU. I figure I'm getting 3:1 on my money and any PP probably shows a slight profit if played well. I think the discussions over the last few days have really made me take a second look at the real value of pairs. I had started folding 22-44 UTG at 3/6 because I thought they couldn't be profitable there, but I now think limping with small PPs in these spots is good. However, I've also come to devalue small suited aces in EP because of the likelyhood of dominating raises isolating me against stronger hands.

[thirddan]

in most games all pair are profitable, unless there are very aggressive players that will isolate when they see weakness, but most games are not like this...

also, in number 2, i don't think that what happens after your make your decision can retro actively affect the ev of your previous decision...when it is your decision to act, you must judge what decision is best based on all info that you have, if you believe that it is +EV to limp with 22 UTG (which it probably is) then that decision is +EV even if it gets capped behind you, however you are now faced with a new decision that you must judge the EV of...