KJs - Just doing a check up

[JoshuaD]

I've been treading water at 2/4 for a month, and it's starting to piss me off. Hands like this are coming up alot; the pot's small, it's HU, I'm not very strong, and I get bumped on the turn. Should I be folding these more often?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero ???

I know it's a simple hand, and not really discussion worthy, but I'd just like some comments on it.

Thanks.

[Xiphoid]

Call. Check/call river.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Call. Check/call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think I'm good here more than a quarter of the time?

I should add, this hand was essentially readless. After 7 hands he was a 29/0/0. That's not saying much.

[27offsooot]

calls down

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
calls down

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on why? I called down, and I always do do, but it feels like there's not much I'm beating here, and I'm not getting very good odds.

[27offsooot]

The board is semi-bluffish, you have TP heads up and you're getting something like 7:2 (sorry, i'm slightly inebriated if my math w/o viewing the hand is off). Against an unknown, this is a call down, against passive opponents, i can see a fold, maybe. Let me guess, u were shown KQ. It happens.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
The board is semi-bluffish, you have TP heads up and you're getting something like 7:2 (sorry, i'm slightly inebriated if my math w/o viewing the hand is off).

[/ QUOTE ]

What doyou mean the board is semi-bluffish? Hands like A/images/graemlins/club.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif trying to take a shot?

[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown, this is a call down, against passive opponents, i can see a fold, maybe. Let me guess, u were shown KQ. It happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not being result oriented here. This hand is just an example of hands like this that happen alot. I had decided to post this hand before I saw the showdown.

[Xiphoid]

Hard to put a percentage on it, but I think you win this often enough to call down. Some players will do this with top pair and you could have him outkicked. He could also have middle pair or even a draw.

[Redeye]

I think if the villian is a complete unknown, this is probably a spot to call down to keep you sane. Its possible for someone to be semibluffing clubs here or something like QJ, or maybe hit some weird two pair on the turn. I'm not sure if calling down is profitable, but it can't be that big of a leak.

I think if you had any more of a read you might be able to find a fold here. There aren't a lot of players that get too aggressive on the turn at 2/4, although you do run into them. He probably had KT, but you never know.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Hard to put a percentage on it, but I think you win this often enough to call down. Some players will do this with top pair and you could have him outkicked. He could also have middle pair or even a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, let's say hypothetically, I'm in the SB, he's in the BB. There's no PF raise. Everyone folds to us, the hand continues from there like the hand above. Call down? (You'd be getting exactly 3:1)

That is, the pot can never be too small to fold this situation?

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if calling down is profitable, but it can't be that big of a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the thing, this situation does occur semi-frequently, so if I'm misplaying here, it's a bunch of small mistakes that can add up to money lost.

[Redeye]

[ QUOTE ]
So, let's say hypothetically, I'm in the SB, he's in the BB. There's no PF raise. Everyone folds to us, the hand continues from there like the hand above. Call down? (You'd be getting exactly 3:1)

That is, the pot can never be too small to fold this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, with you not raising PF in this example(and in relatively EP), the odds villian would have a smaller K or a T would probably be greater, making a call down more necessary IMO.

[Rafael_Luiz]

Call down is correct here, especially with no read. If you have 3:1 on your money and you're good only 25% of the time, it will be +EV considering you will probably win the pot if you hit one of 3 Jacks, unless he has a set.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call. Check/call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think I'm good here more than a quarter of the time?

I should add, this hand was essentially readless. After 7 hands he was a 29/0/0. That's not saying much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a read, I'll call down here. With a good read, there's definitely times you can fold this hand.

Lots of reasons to call down an unknown, though. That club on the turn puts a club draw out there, some players will semibluff here. There's also a spade draw that could be semibluffing.

The 7 on the turn could certainly be two pair. You have a lot of hidden outs against the range of two pair hands villian could have.

Your effective odds are 9.75:2, so you need to be take this pot down closer to 21% of the time to show a profit. Against an unknown at 2/4, this seems reasonable. If I have any type of read that villian is unlikely to raise a flush draw, folding is a much more valid option in a pot this size.

Myself, I want to find a fold in this situation more often than I do. However, the time to find these folds is not when you're readless. If we're beat, we still get to make a note on our opponent. Write down what he raises the turn with heads up. This is valuable information (and another thing I don't do as often as I would like).

[JoshuaD]

Thanks for the reply, but one error:

[ QUOTE ]
Your effective odds are 9.75:2, so you need to be take this pot down closer to 21% of the time to show a profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count 7.75:2.

There's 3.75 coming into the turn. I bet, 4.75, He raises, 6.75. If I want to see the showdown (which I will if I call the turn), I'm gonna have to put in two more bets, and he's gonna put in 1 more, so I'm getting 7.75:2.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply, but one error:

[ QUOTE ]
Your effective odds are 9.75:2, so you need to be take this pot down closer to 21% of the time to show a profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count 7.75:2.

There's 3.75 coming into the turn. I bet, 4.75, He raises, 6.75. If I want to see the showdown (which I will if I call the turn), I'm gonna have to put in two more bets, and he's gonna put in 1 more, so I'm getting 7.75:2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bleh, mistakenly included your bets there too. 7.75:2 is correct.

So are we good more than 25% of the time? With the distribution of 2/4 players I'm used to, I think we are.

[Erik W]

Everyone says clear calldown.
If it would be same cards rainbow after turn.
What is the verdict then?

[JackWilson]

Now, maybe this is wrong, but I don't think you can allow yourself to get bluffed out too often in a HU situation when you have a hand. Here you clearly have a hand.

[Yeknom58]

With no reads I'm definitely calling down. This is a draw heavy board so any T/K might make this raise thinking they have the best hand and need to protect it from the draws. And this is in addition to all the crazy raises you'll see from the "average" party players.

[Msogard]

Personally, I don't like the pre-flop raise in that spot. (Unless this is was extremely loose table) Maybe I'm too tight, but I would've called from that spot, bet the flop, bet the turn, and folded to the raise.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't like the pre-flop raise in that spot. (Unless this is was extremely loose table) Maybe I'm too tight, but I would've called from that spot, bet the flop, bet the turn, and folded to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are too tight. Easy pf raise at small stakes. I call down in a HU situation.

[Benman]

When you said you didn't like the raise from that spot, I assumed you would have folded. But then you said you'd call. I think a call PF is worse than a raise or a fold, in my opinion. Open calling after a couple of folds is nearly always wrong in my opinion. If you're going to play and you're the first one in, why not take a small chance at winning it right there. Is your conern that two bets is too much money with a hand like KJs whereas one bet is not? I don't get it. If somebody has AA or AK behind you, I'd rather them make it three bets now and really let me know where I'm at. Sometimes I'll open call with from like UTG with AKs, but after a couple of folds it's raise or fold.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
When you said you didn't like the raise from that spot, I assumed you would have folded. But then you said you'd call. I think a call PF is worse than a raise or a fold, in my opinion. Sometimes I'll open call with from like UTG with AKs, but after a couple of folds it's raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

IMO with KJs in EP

Raising &gt; limping &gt; folding


[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I'll open call with from like UTG with AKs...

[/ QUOTE ]

If sometimes is less than 1% of the time, that's cool.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
What doyou mean the board is semi-bluffish? Hands like A/images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif trying to take a shot?


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. And I agree with 27. On such a draw heavy board I'd call down. Against and unknown I'd probably call down anyway. But be more inclined to on this type of board. If I intendended to call the river with something like your AT example I would raise this turn against you most times.

[Msogard]

I think the decision between raising and calling here is pretty insignificant compared to how the hand is played after the flop. That being said, I think my reasoning for the limp is my position. I would agree that it's an easy raise in middle position, in early position I think it can go either way. Anybody think it really matters?

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the decision between raising and calling here is pretty insignificant compared to how the hand is played after the flop. That being said, I think my reasoning for the limp is my position. I would agree that it's an easy raise in middle position, in early position I think it can go either way. Anybody think it really matters?

[/ QUOTE ]

My only point was if people at 2/4 insist on cold-calling with QJ, QT, KT, K9, Qxs, Kxs..... I'm going to raise from EP with KJs. That is all.

As far as how the hands plays out, I think raising PF does have impact on how this hand plays out post flop. I see this move all the time when people try to get you to fold QQ or JJ on a K high board heads up.