20-40 foxwoods vs. the best player in the joint......

[BK1248]

Im in c/o and open raise with j 10 suited and get 3 bet by best regular player in foxwoods. He knows I have reasonable standards for blind steals and he has good standards for resteals, (KJ suited or better he would 3-bet me here, ).

Flop: A K rag rainbow none of my suit. 7.5 small bets he bets i call? This is where the question of this post comes from? Is this correct to call getting 7.5 - 1 with the implied odds of hitting the gutterball, or the chance of him raising with 99, 88, 77 and checking the turn? Which im not sure he would do.

Turn: of course Q. so i check he bets and i c/r.

river: rag , he has AQ and pays me off..

My main question is the flop call, is this correct? He was a lil frustated and said that this was incorrect. He said that he might have had a Q and my outs were even less, or a set and a full house redraw messed up my implied odds. Barry, if this is favorable for me print this out and show him, if not forget it. Thank you.

[Shang Chou]

Folding on the flop seems a little weak. But calling might be a little loose. Who knows. He coulda 3 bet you preflop with 88 or 99.

Where you playing 20/40 there today? I was at 10/20 and people were talking about a 20/40 hand where it was capped preflop with a ton of people in and the flop came AKx. Two AQ were in there jamming the pot and some guy had K5. River came a 5 and his two pair took down a huge pot that was capped preflop multiway, capped 3 or 4 ways on the flop and turn.

[Barry]

Hey BK, was it Billy?

I dunno, if you hit and get 2 BB's out of him, the implied odds on the gutterball are slightly positive. You add to that, that sometimes your pair outs might be good, you have a call. I think that it's close and if wrong, not by very much.

[roy_miami]

I think I lead this turn and hope to get in a 3-bet. It will also set up some call the flop, lead the turn bluffs (my new favorite play) later in similar situations.

[slickpoppa]

This guy sounds like a typical 20/40 prima donna. The odds against the Q hitting are 10.75:1 and you are getting 7.5:1. The turn and river give you implied odds of 11.5:1 and possibly 13.5:1. The possibility that he has a set or two pair changes the odds slightly, but the probability is small enough to be negligible. His reraise preflop means there is a slightly higher probability that he has a queen, but this effect is also small enough to be negligible.

It is a close call, but to say that it is clearly wrong is just sour grapes.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Im in c/o and open raise with j 10 suited and get 3 bet by best regular player in foxwoods...He was a lil frustated and said that this was incorrect. He said that he might have had a Q and my outs were even less, or a set and a full house redraw messed up my implied odds. Barry, if this is favorable for me print this out and show him, if not forget it. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope that he did not offer this commentary at the table, and that you did not ask this question of him at the table.

Someday, even "very good" players will hopefully learn that talking about such things over the table is counterproductive to the goal having a profitable game to play in.

"Best" players do not discuss strategy over the table, period. To do so is bad because it gets people thinking much more seriously about the game, even the purely recreational players.

Bad, bad, bad. Don't talk about this over the table, don't bring the printout to the next 20/40 game he is in, don't ever do it again--if you want to develop long-term winning habits.

Now: if you want to ask his thoughts on the side away from the table, you might do that, and he might be nice enough to be honest with you. But doing this sort of thing over the table is just really terrible for the game. And it is bad for future games as well.

[anatta]

From these recent Foxwoods posts there seems to be a lot of table talk out there. I know in Vegas you encounter this quite a bit. I don't hear so much discussion of hands in So Cal.

Your flop play is correct implied odds and such. For all his might have a Q or a set bs, he might check the turn for you. If you put a beat on him, he can shake his head for the next hour which is entertaining to some extent.

[Barry]

FWIW if it's who I think that it is, he is a pretty decent player, a nice guy and I seem to remember has been a little bit of a mentor to BK. So I'm sure that any commentary that was made, was made quietly.

If I see him today, I'll "quietly" tell him that he was FOS!

[BK1248]

Barry has a good idea who it is and the player and I discuss hands on a regular basis. I told him I was going to post this and he was interested in the responses as well. He discussed this with me at the table in my ear with no one listening. At this point Q 3 off UTG was a common hand so I dont think they were on the brink of becoming break even + players. I posted this because I felt bad of the mentor factor and what he perceived to be a "bad beat".

[chio]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, if you hit and get 2 BB's out of him, the implied odds on the gutterball are slightly positive.


[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this

[ QUOTE ]
You add to that, that sometimes your pair outs might be good, you have a call.

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think you can count your pair outs at all. this is assuming you call down, which means you have to take into account the times you make your pair you lose 2 extra BB. unless you want to starting guessing against a tough player. and calling the turn and folding the river or something

[MMMMMM]

That's not so bad then...I just have seen too many games tighten up when hands or strategy start being discussed over the table. Glad to hear this was not within earshot of others (although whispering in someone's ear at the table can sometimes make other players uncomfortable too).

[drbk2]

Wassup man!

Easy call on the flop. While your pair outs are no good, you know that you'll get paid off enough that you're getting the proper odds. Heads up in a raised pot, I think the J10 gut shot draw for broadway is really the only gutshot draw worth chasing if you're getting less than real odds to hit it. Chances are you'll be up against a pair of aces and you will almost always have the implieds.

[sthief09]

I would have bet-3bet the turn. a lot of the time he's going to raise you there, and some of the times he doesn't, he'll check behind, with something liek JJ or TT, figuring his gut shot is his only hope against someone who called on an AK flop. if he has AA, AK, AQ, KQ, QQ, or KK, he'll probably raise your turn bet. since his standards from here are pretty tight, I think you'll make an extra bet against most of these hands.

and oh yeah, the flop call is trivially easy