JJ flops a set [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

beachbum

02-18-2005, 10:20 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Villian is extremely loose-passive

converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

 Anyone dislike the river? Even though he's passive, I figure it's a great spot for him to bluff a spade. I didn't want to bet and get raised. He's calling any spade no matter how low, and possibly raising one.

Also, he's got a 9/45 chance to have a spade and the pot is giving me much more that 5:1 so I figured check-call was the best play.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

27offsooot

02-18-2005, 10:28 PM

Whatever happened to Clarkmeister's theorem. Bet the river, fold if raised.

cold_cash

02-18-2005, 10:29 PM

The problem is if you check and he bets, you're screwed; if you bet and he calls, you still have a chance.

If you bet you don't give him a free showdown when he doesn't have a spade.

"Lose the same when you're behind, win more when you're ahead" type of deal.

chief444

02-18-2005, 10:39 PM

If he's extremely loose-passive, he'll never bluff raise the river. But he will call with many worse hands. He'll hardly ever bet worse than a flush though. Check/call is far worse than betting against this opponent. Far worse.

colgin

02-18-2005, 11:25 PM

Bet the river.

Against an unknown I would call a raise. If villain is a genuine loose passive you can safely fold to a raise.

Also, if you say he is passive then it goes against your trying to induce a bluff. Passives don't bluff on four flush boards.

krishanleong

02-18-2005, 11:33 PM

If he's loose passive, is he going to bet a hand like QJ? No, but he'll probably call with it.

If he's loose passive, will he raise with a hand you beat? No, so you can safely fold.

So if you bet/fold to a raise you gain 1 bet more than if you check call. I think this is the best way to play it. Also loose passives don't bluff all that often.

Krishan

beachbum

02-19-2005, 12:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you say he is passive then it goes against your trying to induce a bluff. Passives don't bluff on four flush boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But isn't this the easiest place for someone to bluff? I mean I've been showing strength the whole hand, then I check out of the blue. If a passive player is going to bluff anytime, it's here.

The reason I checked is 80% because I didn't want to face a tough decison against a raise, and 20% to induce a bluff.

You guys are right on though. Against this type of player I should definitely bet the river, for several of the reasons mentioned in this thread. Thanks.

mr pink

02-19-2005, 12:23 AM

if he raises the river, a fold is a pretty easy decision against all but the most LAG. that board has to look just as scary to him as it does to you.

Evan

02-19-2005, 12:41 AM

bet the river and call a raise. you lose too much value by checking and its a fun card for him to bluff so I am seeing a showdown.

Schizo

02-19-2005, 12:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
bet the river and call a raise. you lose too much value by checking and its a fun card for him to bluff so I am seeing a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this very interesting. Evan, what do you think about this:

Bob T thread Folding to raise on river (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=1380073 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=steel&Searchpage=0&Limit=2 5&Main=1378280&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=168& daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&older type=&bodyprev=#Post1380073)

cold_cash

02-19-2005, 12:59 AM

I'm not calling a raise against someone who's "extremely loose-passive".

Schizo

02-19-2005, 01:03 AM

I hear that, and I'm with you on that one. I'm sure you are aware that Bob T is a good player and I'm just curious as to why there is a stark contrast in opinions.

cold_cash

02-19-2005, 01:18 AM

I'm aware of Bob T's abilities. I didn't even read the thread in the link you posted, I was just talking about this particular hand.

I'll check it out though.

colgin

02-19-2005, 02:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But isn't this the easiest place for someone to bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
If a passive player is going to bluff anytime, it's here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You assume that given the right set of circumstances a passive player will bluff. They won't; that's what makes them passive. And if they were going to bluff I don't think this is necesarily the time they would do it. I wouldn't do it, nor would most of the players in this forum, but many people will check a small flush out of position on the river for fear of a higher flush. The fact that you checked does not mean to your opponent that you do not have a flush. And even if you don't it is reasonable for him to think you are not going to fold for one more bet here. It is not so easy for someone to bluff here, and a loose-passive player is not likely to be the type trying to do it.

beachbum

02-19-2005, 05:19 AM

FWIW, he had 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Shillx

02-19-2005, 06:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hear that, and I'm with you on that one. I'm sure you are aware that Bob T is a good player and I'm just curious as to why there is a stark contrast in opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you trust a guy whos avatar reads "You gonna get raped"? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brad

Schizo

02-19-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How can you trust a guy whos avatar reads "You gonna get raped"?

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

Still this bet and call a raise w/ a 4 card flush on board has me puzzled. It's not what I would of expected. I wonder if there is a way to mine my PT database for all hands that had a 4 card flush and a raise on the river.