PDA

View Full Version : An attitude to avoid


Greg (FossilMan)
09-05-2002, 10:10 AM
This is a tale of the Tuesday night NL HE tourney at Foxwoods. Again. ;-)

I've been running very poorly in this event lately. I keep getting involved in big pots with a big edge, and getting sucked out on. Things like AcTc vs. KhTh and all the money going in after the flop hits Td7c5c. AA vs. TT all-in preflop. Etc.

[censored] happens, and I've not regretted any of these plays.

So, last night, things turn around, or so it seems. With blinds at 5,5, and players having T200 (or T400 if they rebuy right away), I go from T400 to T1400 during the first level. Nothing miraculous, I am at a great table and can bet the 4th nut flush for value on the river knowing I will get called by worse hands (even 1-pair hands) much more often than just better hands. Things slow down, and I only move up to T1900 by the end of the rebuy period.

Now what happens is exactly what you want in a NL tourney. I get dealt a bunch of trash hands and fold. Then, I get dealt QQ and get to put all the money in preflop against a hand I know is not AA, KK, or AK. I win. I win with JJ, flop a set with 44, etc. I'm the big blind one hand for T100, and have like T4,000 in my stack (chip leader at table). Player makes it T400, and gets a reluctant call, when both of them have total stacks of about T900-1000. I say out loud "It sure would be a nice time to have aces." I then peek at my hand, and say "Sweet! I raise". I put out a big stack of T100 chips. After a pause, they call, and I turn over AA. It would be assumed I was pulling a stunt, except all the regulars know that I NEVER look at my hand preflop until it's my turn to act.

A while later, we get a new player moved to our table. It's her first NL game ever. She has a big stack. She makes a dubious call against a third guy who has a big stack, and wins with AJo vs. his A6o. She now has me covered by a bit. We are at 2 tables, about 17 players, and she is talking about playing tight until we're in the money. All fold to me in the SB, and I raise with AA. I figure she will fold, but we're both so deep that I don't want to give her a free flop and let her catch 2-pair or some such. She makes a minimum reraise, and I gladly announce all-in. Now that she's made that raise, I'm pretty sure she has a good hand, and that she won't fold. She calls. She has been cold-decked with AhKh. I win, and have something like T19,000 now out of about T75,000.

We're at about 13 players (10 paid), and I still have about T19,000. I'm in the small blind T300, and the button raises all-in first to enter for about T7500. I find KK and call. He (and everyone) cannot believe how often I'm picking up big hands at the right time. He has Ac9c. But, BOOM, there is an A on the flop, and I lose. Down to about T12,000, and he has me covered. I make a steal raise a few hand later with KJo first to enter, but the blind reraise all-in for about 4x my raise, and I fold. I take the blinds and fold. We lose a couple of players, and another guy at my table builds up a big stack.

It's my small blind (300-600 blinds) again, and I start the hand with T9,300. While this is well below my peak, it is still above average. The cutoff, who has just recently become a big stack, raises to T1500. I have KK again. I make it T4500. He raises all-in, I call. He has JJ. But, BOOM, there is a J on the flop, and I lose. He has T9500 to start the hand, and I'm out on the bubble. Less than 12 hands ago I was the dominant chip leader. Bummer.

Here's the point of all this.

I go over to the PL HE live game. There is a regular in the game, and older guy, who generally plays very tight. Tonight he actually went on tilt, which I'd never seen him do before. I'm chatting with people at the table, and waiting for a seat to open. Now the older guy speaks up:

"You didn't know what you were doing tonight. You had all those chips, and could've made the final table by just not playing any hands."

My reply:

"Spoken like somebody who wants to come in 5th."

It is amusing that the same guy, at my starting table, said to me before the tourney started that he was hoping to win it tonight, even a chop would do, because in so many years of playing this event he'd never won it.

Any doubt as to why he's never won it?

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Jimbo
09-05-2002, 10:56 AM
Very interseting post Greg. I assume you were only interested in winning the tourney not making the money. At least that is what the title (and your play) implies. Just one question if I may. Don't you think at the beginning of every tournry he enters he hopes to win? I suspect he does and then his true nature kicks in late and he begins to simply attempt to inch up into the money.

You did get 2 bad breaks late in this one Greg but I know soon you will be posting how you finally won this one.

Best of luck,

Jimbo

Greg (FossilMan)
09-05-2002, 11:14 AM
I wouldn't say I'm only interested in winning. What I'm mostly interested in is making money. And I don't mind adding variance to my results as long as I also add more than a minor amount of increased expectation.

So, I wasn't playing to win per se. However, when I have KK and I know you don't have AA (or at least there is only a VERY small chance), I'm sure as hell not going to fold preflop. And that is exactly what the older guy was advising. Rather than take a gamble with a big edge, he would advise me to fold and get into the money first.

Chances to put in all your chips as a 5:1 favorite don't come along that often, and if you pass one by because you're not quite in the money yet, you will seriously reduce your expectation. So, in the long run, if you start me and the older guy with the same stack late in the game, he might finish in the money more often than I. However, I am confident that my average return will be MUCH higher than his. Winning more often will merely be a part of that.

Also, thanks for the kind words. However, I have won this event 4 times already this year, just not since the spring. In almost 4 years of living in CT, I would guess I've won this event about 20 times. We used to get fields of only 30-50, then it was more like 60-70, but for the last year it's been more like 100 players. With about 150 times that I've entered it, I'm pretty happy with 20 wins. ;-)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Boylermaker
09-05-2002, 11:38 AM
Good couple of posts Greg. It is the type of attitude possessed by the other player that only reinforces how accurate and effective the 'Gap Concept' truly is and can be.

JTG51
09-05-2002, 12:48 PM
I left Tuesday night when the tourney was down to 30 or so players and you had a huge stack. I figured you were the odds on favorite to win. Those were a couple of tough hands. Nice post though.

ohkanada
09-05-2002, 04:10 PM
Good post as usual. And I hope you continue posting on 2+2.

Ken Poklitar

Mark Heide
09-05-2002, 10:32 PM
Obviously, the tight old man will never win. You can't turn down good situations. Something he does not understand. Anyway, it is usually my goal to have at least an average stack for the final table. I would do the same as you and forget the old man because he does not understand.

It looks like lady luck left early.

Mark

whiskeytown
09-06-2002, 01:31 AM
no joke...

I had a game...10 players (9 get paid) - and I'm in 9th of 10th, and at the same time, hand for hand I'll be getting a hand one turn before the short short stacked player.

I look down, (utg) and see QQ -

If I muck I will probably make 9th, and unless I double up 3 times in a hurry, will end in 9th. Otherwise I can try to get enough chips for a fighting chance and go for it...

I did go all in, won and made 6th that time...and the pros will tell ya they hate to admit how many times they've busted out on the bubble cause they want to win this thing, not simply place in it.

Playing for the first place win may not have the highest guaranteed payoff overall, (as Mike Caro says) but it can be worth the gamble occasionally.

scalf
09-06-2002, 09:05 AM
gr8 post fossil, and oh how so true, this one post qualifies you as a real expert...see you hopefully at starwoods about a month,,gl /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif