A couple of flop bets from last night

[sfer]

All are live 4/8 with either 2 or 3 other 2+2ers at the table.

Hand 1
Three bad players limp to me and I complete in the SB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checks. Flop is T42 rainbow. I bet.

Hand 2
Three limpers to me (1 2+2er included) and I limp in the CO with QTo, SB folds, BB checks. Flop is K95. Checked to me and I bet.

Hand 3
This one is from the Borgata 20/40 last weekend. 2 limpers to me and I limp with 77 in MP, Bunky overlimps behind me and both blinds call/check. Flop is A48. Checked to me and I bet.

[private joker]

I like 1 and 2. But in 3, what are you gonna do when Bunky raises? What range of hands can you then put him on?

[J.R.]

I dislike 1 unless they are pretty weak-tight (doubtful), and think the rest are standard.

I am still kinda eewwy on the limp in 2, I think I'd almost rather raise but if the button is tight the limp isn't so bad.

[casinogosain]

I like #1 and #3.

I think a preflop raise (vs fold) in #2. Given that you limped and were last to act I think the bet is good. If you weren't last, then I think check-call and lead the turn (unless it is led by somebody else).

In #1 did the rainbow include a /images/graemlins/spade.gif? If so, I like it even more.

-ash

[ QUOTE ]
All are live 4/8 with either 2 or 3 other 2+2ers at the table.

Hand 1
Three bad players limp to me and I complete in the SB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checks. Flop is T42 rainbow. I bet.

Hand 2
Three limpers to me (1 2+2er included) and I limp in the CO with QTo, SB folds, BB checks. Flop is K95. Checked to me and I bet.

Hand 3
This one is from the Borgata 20/40 last weekend. 2 limpers to me and I limp with 77 in MP, Bunky overlimps behind me and both blinds call/check. Flop is A48. Checked to me and I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Kaz The Original]

Ironic how many different viewpoints there are on this one. I like #1, am sorta kinda maybe possibly liking #2 and detest #3.

[SparkyDog]

I like hand 1.

Hand 2 is good too. Gutshot, but no one likely has a king and there's only one overcard to the flop so you don't have fish trying to run you down. It'll be really hard to call with a hand like ATo on a flop like this, and you have plenty of outs against PP < 99 and second pair hands.

Hand 3 you'll have a tough time chasing out hands raggy ace hands that the fish hold, and if Bunky is cooperative enough to help you protect your hand you're behind with few outs. On the other hand he'll fold hands that you're behind or that are drawing live against you. I'd give up on hand 3 pretty quickly if you get any action since that probably means a pair on this drawless board.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
detest #3.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? 3 people checked to him, and its unlikely bunky limped with an A and there is a chance, the few times some has an 8, that they fold it to his flop bet. IMO this is the least debatable hand.

[DMBFan23]

I love hand 2. it's going to be hard for very many hands without a K to call you there and you have jack outs if they do call. plus you act last. unless the 2+2er has been checkraising a lot

in hand 1, my hand is too crappy and there are too many overcard hands that could call. I've recently gotten some great advice to start taking these pots down shorthanded when I flop something like a mid pair crappy kicker, but 5 players is too many for me - hopefully I'll learn something here. do you at least have a backdoor flush?

in hand 3, meh, I wish bunky wasnt next to act. but if you get calls on this drawless board you can be done with the hand I suppose, and I don't know the game texture or your table image (if those are even considerations) well enough to know whether you likely take it down right there, or if bunky limps with lots of hands that might have an ace. I'll reserve judgement on this one since I dont know no stinkin 20/40

[chief444]

I don't really like hand 1 against 3 "bad players" (assuming at least a couple of them are loose). Hands 2 and 3 I would bet.

[Monty Cantsin]

Hand 1: Solid.

Hand 2: Solid.

Hand 3: Solid.

/mc

[sfer]

Why is everyone scared of Bunky behind me? Bunky limped behind 2 limpers and me on the button. This bet is great against his range of hands since he's folding plenty of offsuit Broadway hands that have 6 clean outs. This Ace is my friend in this hand.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone scared of Bunky behind me? Bunky limped behind 2 limpers and me on the button. This bet is great against his range of hands since he's folding plenty of offsuit Broadway hands that have 6 clean outs. This Ace is my friend in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this depends on how the 20/40 game plays. If it's at all like the 4/8 live games I play, the bet is pointless and you you would much rather have the free card, if there's any chance bunky will give it to you. If you actually do have some fold equity, OTOH, the bet is good.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1
Three bad players limp to me and I complete in the SB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checks. Flop is T42 rainbow. I bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this. Betting into a field of 4 players at live 4/8 you have no fold equity, and there is a decent chance you get raised. The only advantage I see to this is that you will get paid off more if a 4 comes. However, if a 9 falls, I would much rather have been a caller on the flop, so that I can c/r the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2
Three limpers to me (1 2+2er included) and I limp in the CO with QTo, SB folds, BB checks. Flop is K95. Checked to me and I bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

You bet instead of taking a free card? Again, I don't get it -- you have zero fold equity, if Commerce 4/8 games are at all like the ones you play. In my games, I would expect at least 3 of the 4 other players to call that bet.

[sfer]

My comments were just about everyone's irrational fear of Bunky raising me, which is not something I should worry about. As for how the game plays, it plays aggressively enough such that any Ace would come out on the flop betting.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
As for how the game plays, it plays aggressively enough such that any Ace would come out on the flop betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the more important question: How loose does it play? If you can count on people calling w/out the A, especially if you can count on more than 1 calling, what does the flop bet do for you? And it's even worse if they are calling the turn as well. Am I crazy here?

[sfer]

It doesn't play loose enough where non-pair hands are calling in the face of aggression on an Ace high board. What games play that loose?

[chief444]

sfer probably holds the best hand. A couple of them calling is not so bad. If they fold it's not so bad either. The A makes it tough for even a loose player to call with 8<both cards<A.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't play loose enough where non-pair hands are calling in the face of aggression on an Ace high board. What games play that loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my god, are you kidding? Come on down to Commerce some time. In a 4/8 game, you will get called any pair, any backdoor flush, any gutshot, sometimes things that just don't make any sense at all. It is absolutely insane, and I mean it when I say you have ZERO fold equity in these games.

[Joe Tall]

Hand#1: fold preflop, no, it's not close.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand#1: fold preflop, no, it's not close.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the 4/8 a 1/2 blind structure? If so, how is it a bad complete with 3 bad limpers?

Rob

[Joe Tall]

Is the 4/8 a 1/2 blind structure?

Don't know, don't care.

If so, how is it a bad complete with 3 bad limpers?

It's not monkey see, monkey do. I like money, don't you?

Have a nice day Entity, I'm hung over, sorry for the bitterness.

Love (it's that tough 2+2 Love),
Joe Tall

[sfer]

So let's say every no-pair hand will call you. I still say you should bet. Do you agree?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh my god, are you kidding? Come on down to Commerce some time. In a 4/8 game, you will get called any pair, any backdoor flush, any gutshot, sometimes things that just don't make any sense at all. It is absolutely insane, and I mean it when I say you have ZERO fold equity in these games.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then betting is still better, especially when it likely gains you position.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the 4/8 a 1/2 blind structure?

Don't know, don't care.

If so, how is it a bad complete with 3 bad limpers?

It's not monkey see, monkey do. I like money, don't you?

Have a nice day Entity, I'm hung over, sorry for the bitterness.

Love (it's that tough 2+2 Love),
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

The bitterness is fine with me. Nice location, btw. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But seriously, I've grown up following the Miller mantra of any two suited with sufficient limpers due to implied odds. Obviously this is something I have questioned and reconsidered, but it still seems ok to complete with this here, with 3 limpers.

Maybe not, though. I'm open to discussion.

Rob

[sfer]

Easiest. Complete. Ever. Have a vitamin water; don't think about barfing.

Help me convince Boom Boom to make the trip to the 'Woods tomorrow.

[Entity]

Dude, your avatar/location rule.

[Joe Tall]

Easiest. Complete. Ever.

dave no. not close, dave, not close. you are putting your money in with less than what they limped, dave, out of position. dave, this is not good, dave. you are a smart guy, you like money, don't throw it away, dave

Have a vitamin water; don't think about barfing.

Vitamin water, now that's a great idea, thanks. The barfing days are behind me, thank god. I am an old man you know.


Help me convince Boom Boom to make the trip to the 'Woods tomorrow.

If he had a wig on, you could date him as I'm sure he has a pussy. However, I'm headed up to Vermont shortly w/the woman, skiing tomorrow.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
So let's say every no-pair hand will call you. I still say you should bet. Do you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

In theory, yes. But in reality you are likely to get 2 or 3 callers, and at least one of them will have some piece of the board. Plus there is always a chance of a c/r (not too big here, granted), which argues further against the bet.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
dave no. not close, dave, not close. you are putting your money in with less than what they limped, dave, out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind that getting 9 to 1 and with implied odds that would give Jake Barnes a hard-on.

[ QUOTE ]

If he had a wig on, you could date him as I'm sure he has a pussy.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
But in reality you are likely to get 2 or 3 callers, and at least one of them will have some piece of the board. Plus there is always a chance of a c/r (not too big here, granted), which argues further against the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. I'd rather get checkraised than have the flop check through and have an undercard on the turn and a bet in front of me that is opaque and uninterpretable. Put another way, I'd rather put them to the decision to continue because they've already told me they have nothing.

Look at it this way, hands with two overcards should call the bet if they could see my cards. They are almost certainly out there, and I'd be surprised if Bunky doesn't have one. Folding them not only increases my chances of winning, it is a serious mistake on their part. Look at my equity:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=779895
pokenum -h 7c 7h - qc jd - 6h 6s - kc th - 5s 4d -- ad 8c 2s
Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing 2s 8c Ad
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 7h 210 28.34 531 71.66 0 0.00 0.283
Qc Jd 159 21.46 582 78.54 0 0.00 0.215
6s 6h 63 8.50 678 91.50 0 0.00 0.085
Kc Th 144 19.43 597 80.57 0 0.00 0.194
5s 4d 165 22.27 576 77.73 0 0.00 0.223

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=779896
pokenum -h 7c 7h - - 6h 6s - kc th - 5s 4d -- ad 8c 2s
Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 2s 8c Ad
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 7h 378 46.10 442 53.90 0 0.00 0.461
6s 6h 67 8.17 753 91.83 0 0.00 0.082
Kc Th 202 24.63 618 75.37 0 0.00 0.246
5s 4d 173 21.10 647 78.90 0 0.00 0.211

As it was, the flop bet took the pot.

EDIT: For clarity.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
No way. I'd rather get checkraised than have the flop check through and have an undercard on the turn and a bet in front of me that is opaque and uninterpretable.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the bet took the pot, then the texture of this game is different than the live 4/8 games I'm used to, so my comments don't really apply.

But just for sake of argument, assume you were playing at commerce, that you would get at least 2 callers, one of them would have a pair already, but that you would also fold some overcards. Is the bet still good?

Also, a call by these players (even on the turn) is just as uninterprable as a bet after you've checked.

I'm a little more convinced by your folding overcards argument, but it still feels wrong to me. Am I being weak tight?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]

But just for sake of argument, assume you were playing at commerce, that you would get at least 2 callers, one of them would have a pair already, but that you would also fold some overcards. Is the bet still good?

Also, a call by these players (even on the turn) is just as uninterprable as a bet after you've checked.

I'm a little more convinced by your folding overcards argument, but it still feels wrong to me. Am I being weak tight?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, betting at least gives me the chance to win, where as checking forces me to have the best hand at showdown. I would like to think that I have a pretty good sense of who would call with unpaired hands and who wouldn't (and who would check/call with Ace-rag instead of betting), since that's all I'm concerned about on this board with no draws.

I don't like characterizing these things as weak-tight or not, but I think reading board textures for stealable and semi-stealable pots is profitable, and a lot of fun. Here I'm getting 6 to 1 on the bet and there is a very reasonable chance that I have the best hand. I think not betting is giving up a lot.

[sfer]

Hand 1:
Three bad players limp to me and I complete in the SB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checks. Flop is T42 rainbow. I bet, BB folds, EP calls, the rest fold. Turn is a 9. I check, EP bets, I raise, EP mucks.

Hand 2:
Three limpers to me (1 2+2er included) and I limp in the CO with QTo, SB folds, BB checks. Flop is K95. Checked to me and I bet, all but a "see any turn" player folds. HU to a turn blank, he checks, I bet, he mucks.

Hand 3:
This one is from the Borgata 20/40 last weekend. 2 limpers to me and I limp with 77 in MP, Bunky overlimps behind me and both blinds call/check. Flop is A48. Checked to me and I bet, everyone folds.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3:
This one is from the Borgata 20/40 last weekend. 2 limpers to me and I limp with 77 in MP, Bunky overlimps behind me and both blinds call/check. Flop is A48. Checked to me and I bet, everyone folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

sfer, what hands that have an A would you normally limp with there?

[sfer]

Axs/ATo. ATo and A9s I might raise depending on the tightness of the blinds and the crappiness of the limpers. I'm a little less inclined to raise because Bunky (and most tight players) will fold the button normally.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
All are live 4/8 with either 2 or 3 other 2+2ers at the table.

Hand 1
Three bad players limp to me and I complete in the SB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checks. Flop is T42 rainbow. I bet.

Hand 2
Three limpers to me (1 2+2er included) and I limp in the CO with QTo, SB folds, BB checks. Flop is K95. Checked to me and I bet.

Hand 3
This one is from the Borgata 20/40 last weekend. 2 limpers to me and I limp with 77 in MP, Bunky overlimps behind me and both blinds call/check. Flop is A48. Checked to me and I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

These should all be automatic.

scrub

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Easiest. Complete. Ever.

dave no. not close, dave, not close. you are putting your money in with less than what they limped, dave, out of position. dave, this is not good, dave. you are a smart guy, you like money, don't throw it away, dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, I thought you were out here with Tommy, not Elysium?

scrub

[Joe Tall]

Wait, I thought you were out here with Tommy, not Elysium?

When I'm under chemical infulences I post like Ely, it's happened before. When I'm really high, I don't even try to do it, it happens automatically. Others have picked up on it in the past.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

These should all be automatic.

Except for the completion w/94s, yes, all 3-bets are perfect.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:
Three bad players limp to me and I complete in the SB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checks. Flop is T42 rainbow. I bet, BB folds, EP calls, the rest fold. Turn is a 9. I check, EP bets, I raise, EP mucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bet turn, bet river may have made you more. Your line is better if you have a read on the guy as never laying down a turn here, but that wasn't the case.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
These should all be automatic.

Except for the completion w/94s, yes, all 3-bets are perfect.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe, are you serious? SSHE and HPFAP both advocate completing with two suited cards given sufficient limpers, and I think this pot will be sufficently multiway and the limpers suffiuciently loose that we'll get paid off. I am certainly willing to listen to a good counter argument, and I'm only typing this because I normally respect your opinion a whole lot, but I have to disagree here.

[Joe Tall]

I am certainly willing to listen to a good counter argument, and I'm only typing this because I normally respect your opinion a whole lot, but I have to disagree here

If it helps (or confuses you more), I'd compelte w/95s here.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Schizo]

The tiny chance of a 3 gapped SC hitting pushes this into a call over a simply suited?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I am still kinda eewwy on the limp in 2, I think I'd almost rather raise but if the button is tight the limp isn't so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button in #2 was MRBAA so I fully expected him to fold.