Clark! Since you're here... (x-post)

[SomethingClever]

Very interested to hear your (and the SS forum's) thoughts on this hand. Originally posted in HUSH.

Villain is super LAG, 81/37 with lots of postflop aggression. I've seen him bluff some pretty bizarre holdings and catch cards to win at showdown; I've also seen him fold postflop.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (5.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

[pokerrookie]

check/fold the turn
check/fold the river

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
check/fold the turn
check/fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-folding the river against a LAG is absolutely terrible.

SC, I don't see why you led the flop or the turn. I'd probably check-call this one down against a true LAG.

Rob

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
SC, I don't see why you led the flop or the turn. I'd probably check-call this one down against a true LAG.


[/ QUOTE ]

I had a few lines in mind on the flop, but I'll wait for more responses to post my reasoning.

I think check/calling every street is also a pretty valid line.

[Clarkmeister]

I don't know why you wouldn't checkraise the flop against this opponent.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check/fold the turn
check/fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-folding the river against a LAG is absolutely terrible.

SC, I don't see why you led the flop or the turn. I'd probably check-call this one down against a true LAG.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's think of the hands a LAG would play. What could he possibly have that is better than a pair of threes? Pretty much anything. He raised preflop, you at least have to give him credit for a high card like K or J. I think betting here is throwing money away. I know Lee Jones (weak tight) play would say no set, no bet, and many times I don't agree with it, but here...I certainly do. You have to fold this hand. No reason to be betting at all.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
check/fold the turn
check/fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-folding the river against a LAG is absolutely terrible.

SC, I don't see why you led the flop or the turn. I'd probably check-call this one down against a true LAG.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's think of the hands a LAG would play. What could he possibly have that is better than a pair of threes? Pretty much anything. He raised preflop, you at least have to give him credit for a high card like K or J. I think betting here is throwing money away. I know Lee Jones (weak tight) play would say no set, no bet, and many times I don't agree with it, but here...I certainly do. You have to fold this hand. No reason to be betting at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you read the board? You have a flush head's up on the river. Folding, like I said, is terrible.

Rob

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you wouldn't checkraise the flop against this opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I almost felt that would be too obvious against this opponent. He was actually pretty decent postflop, and I think he'd realize that I wouldn't checkraise the flop with a monster, but rather I'd be trying to scare him off with a marginal holding. I think this would have made him push back even harder.

[pokerrookie]

Fine, maybe on the river. It is a 3-high flush. So check/call the river.

But I am not sure correct play even gets you past the turn. Maybe I am not experienced enough at SH but it seems rather maniacal to bet a pair of 3s into that board.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
He raised preflop, you at least have to give him credit for a high card like K or J.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raises nearly 40% of his hands preflop, so the preflop raise means.... two cards. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[pokerrookie]

I think you are giving way too much credit to ths player. Not that I would check/raise a pair of threes with this board. Maybe I am missing something here, but this is about as LAG a play as I have seen. Is SH play that much different? Pocket threes become a monster? I need to play in that game...

[pudley4]

Yuck

[ QUOTE ]
Let's think of the hands a LAG would play. What could he possibly have that is better than a pair of threes? Pretty much anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

What could he have that is worse than a pair of threes? Pretty much anything. He's a LAG.

[ QUOTE ]
He raised preflop, you at least have to give him credit for a high card like K or J.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or an A, or 97, or 42. He's a LAG.

[ QUOTE ]
I know Lee Jones (weak tight) play would say no set, no bet, and many times I don't agree with it, but here...I certainly do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lee's advice is many times weak-tight, and that's tailored for full games. This is a shorthanded game AND a blind steal AND vs a LAG. Completely completely different from what Lee is talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
You have to fold this hand. No reason to be betting at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, how about the fact that you:

A - Are very likely to have the best hand AND
2 - Are likely to have the best draw also

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]

Villain raises nearly 40% of his hands preflop, so the preflop raise means.... two cards. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure 40% means top 40% of hands. Many of which include a card which could have paired, even more might include a club. With all clubs but one being higher than yours....

[pokerrookie]

The OP says he raises 40% of hands. Assume that he raises the top 40%, so that get's rid of some of the hands you mentioned (2-4o, 7-9o, etc...) He raises regularly post flop, and yet he didnt here. LAG's know some poker concepts, they just don't necessarily apply them, always. Reeks of a slowplay, or a holding of a club. The flush with a 3 doesn't strike me as being that solid. Certainly not the nuts.

Again, the disclaimer, I don't play SH 1/2 that often, but this seems extreme. I may be wrong, but I bet Hero was way way way behind for this entire hand.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Villain raises nearly 40% of his hands preflop, so the preflop raise means.... two cards. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure 40% means top 40% of hands. Many of which include a card which could have paired, even more might include a club. With all clubs but one being higher than yours....

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, you have to remember that it was folded to him on the button. I am certain he would raise 72o in that position.

Also, I doubt he factors whether or not he has a /images/graemlins/club.gif into his decision to raise preflop.

Also, yes, the 1/2 6-max is a very good game. 33 is a monster against many players.

Yes, that's 3 alsos.

[Clarkmeister]

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I don't know why you wouldn't checkraise the flop against this opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I almost felt that would be too obvious against this opponent. He was actually pretty decent postflop, and I think he'd realize that I wouldn't checkraise the flop with a monster, but rather I'd be trying to scare him off with a marginal holding. I think this would have made him push back even harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would hope that you checkraise with monsters from time to time. The thing is that he is 100% going to bet based on your profile, so why *wouldn't* you want to pick up that extra bet before letting him know that you have something?

Let's face it, your bet out into that board isn't super scary anyways as he likely thinks you'd slowplay a true monster til the turn.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Villain raises nearly 40% of his hands preflop, so the preflop raise means.... two cards. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure 40% means top 40% of hands. Many of which include a card which could have paired, even more might include a club. With all clubs but one being higher than yours....

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, you have to remember that it was folded to him on the button. I am certain he would raise 72o in that position.

Also, I doubt he factors whether or not he has a /images/graemlins/club.gif into his decision to raise preflop.

Also, yes, the 1/2 6-max is a very good game. 33 is a monster against many players.

Yes, that's 3 alsos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, I agree that the preflop raise doesn't indicate a club, but there are 7 clubs in the deck he could have which would beat the 3. The preflop raise does indicate raising with 40% holdings.

I would be interested to see what he has raised with on the button. Then I might be convinced that he should at least be called down. Bet into, I don't know. He is a LAG, so these aren't bets to thin the field. And are they really value bets? I seriously need to come play this game.

[Clarkmeister]

Just so everyone is clear:

This opponent plays almost all his hands and raises 40% overall. That means from the button when folded to him, he's raising *and* playing like 90% of his hands.

We have a pair, we have a flush draw. This hand is going to showdown 100% of the time.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
Just so everyone is clear:

This opponent plays almost all his hands and raises 40% overall. That means from the button when folded to him, he's raising *and* playing like 90% of his hands.

We have a pair, we have a flush draw. This hand is going to showdown 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That info does lighten my stance a bit. I still only call down, and at least save 1 BB. Showing it down is a must, IM(new)O.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I would hope that you checkraise with monsters from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do, but I hadn't had the opportunity yet at this table. Also, a lot of the time, against real aggressive types, I'll bet a monster on the flop and then checkraise the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is that he is 100% going to bet based on your profile, so why *wouldn't* you want to pick up that extra bet before letting him know that you have something? Let's face it, your bet out into that board isn't super scary anyways as he likely thinks you'd slowplay a true monster til the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed... and my only defense for not checkraising the flop is that I felt like I wouldn't know how to play the rest of the hand against this player.

When that flop came out all clubs, I considered how I thought this player would play the hand with or without a club.

Based on his prior play, where he was simply bulldozing with bottom pair and catching cards... setting up true turn bluffs that he would then show... setting up times where he would fold to a 3-bet on the turn... I figured he would fastplay if he had a club. I think he would have understood that he had fold equity and a lot of outs (or perhaps even a made hand with a lot of outs), and would go crazy.

Without a club, I think he calls my suspicious flop bet and waits to see how the board develops.

At the same time, as I mentioned, I thought a checkraise would signal weakness on my part, which might make him fastplay something other than a club. He'd be reluctant to put me on big hand on the flop and give up.

So I bet out. If he raises the flop, I put him on a club and check/fold the turn unless it's a 3.

If he calls, I assume he has no club and play accordingly.

The river raise really surprised me, but I thought I had to call against this player.

Thoughts?

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I would hope that you checkraise with monsters from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extremely important concept. I've learned a lot from players like Clarkmeister and the Sklansky and Malmuth essays about varying your play, especially in shorthanded situations.

You should sometimes be checkraising the flop with monsters, sometimes with flush draws, sometimes with MP and an overcard. Sometimes, you should bet out on the flop with the same hands. Sometimes, you should check/call with the same hands.

[Clarkmeister]

"The river raise really surprised me, but I thought I had to call against this player."

Of course you do. If he had a big club, you'd likely have heard from him by now. Basically, he either flopped the nuts, or you are likely good.

[Clarkmeister]

This is a good blind defense hand to look at for everyone. Frankly, while this opponent was a total nut, I'd play it the same way I discuss in here against most opponents.

[Brian]

Results pls?

-Brian

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Results pls?

-Brian

[/ QUOTE ]

In white...

<font color="white"> Villain had KQ, both hearts. My hand was good. </font>

[That guy]

Frankly, while this opponent was a total nut, I'd play it the same way I discuss in here against most opponents.

To Clark and others.

I thought about this hand for a while and I agree that check/raising and leading the turn is the proper play here.

You say you do this against most opponents though...
I think because you hold a club, it is correct to continue on this hand. But what if it came only 2 clubs like Q J rag??

In such a situation, there are 2 cards that come on the flop that a typical opponent has a reasonably high chance of holding (in the playing zone to use a Ciaffone term). You are drawing to 2 outs if behind. Are you really giving up much by just folding before the flop (vs a typical solid opponent -- not the 81% maniac)??

You aren't getting odds to flop a set and a pair of 3's has reverse implied odds when playing out of position vs a decent player...

I see this is 6-max so that is out of my realm... but my thinking at a full ring game is that why bother with a hand you will never feel comfortable with and no money in the pot. Just muck and move on in a 10-handed game.... (note that I agree with Clarks thinking in this particular 81% case --- but that is really because you have the flush to fall back on if behind)...

[Clarkmeister]

"You say you do this against most opponents though...
I think because you hold a club, it is correct to continue on this hand. But what if it came only 2 clubs like Q J rag?? "

You are right that it is a totally different story with only a 2 flush on board. But if you are headsup on the flop with a pair and a flush draw on a 3 flush board, you should almost always be going to showdown. You can never be making much of a mistake by calling but you could make a big mistake by folding.

[That guy]

You are right that it is a totally different story with only a 2 flush on board.

thanks, is a check/fold reasonable on a Q J x 2-flush flop vs a typical??