TP w/ Crap Kicker & Flush Draw

[Nate_Dogg]

This was a typical loose passive table. UTG+2 is loose/passive as well. Would you guys play this any differently?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (7.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

[smiely]

Relative newbie here, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I play this the same way. Limp preflop, raise for value with the flush draw on the flop. Bet out the turn, since no one's really given you any reason to suspect that your hand isn't good, and someone with a strongish K might call along anyway, and a weaker ace will definitely call. If you get raised, you can worry about QJ, but you still have outs to your flush. The river bet is fine also. Again, UTG+2 hasn't given you any reason to slow down. I suspect a weak ace.

And if I've made any grievous errors in my analysis, I welcome the dressing-down I will receive. It's all part of the learning process for me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[NateDog]

I'd say your line looks fine. River card helps, as your kicker no longer plays, hence the value bet.

BTW, nice handle /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Entity]

I probably raise preflop, but limping certainly isn't bad. The rest of the hand is standard.

Rob

[Redd]

Seems pretty standard to me. The only part where you even have a choice is to check behind on the riv, but you'll get weaker hands to call enough to make it +EV. Nice hand.

Redd

edit: Realized there are no weaker aces.

[brooklynjoe]

I don't think it's horrible, but I do question the value of the flop raise. The hero is on a strong draw and has decent back-up with his top pair even with the crap kicker. Why not let as many people come along as possible instead of knocking them out? With no other draw on the board besides the flush, he's likely to only knock out hands that he's beating.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's horrible, but I do question the value of the flop raise. The hero is on a strong draw and has decent back-up with his top pair even with the crap kicker. Why not let as many people come along as possible instead of knocking them out? With no other draw on the board besides the flush, he's likely to only knock out hands that he's beating.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 already called one, and will likely call another one back to him. I like this line as our if hero gets 3 bet by UTG2, he's probably behind given the read, and has 9 outs to the nut flush twice.

[djshawk]

I've not read the other posts yet, so could be repeating or may be way off.

I'd consider raising this one pre-flop. If the players are loose and passive like you say then you'll probably get to the turn if you need to.

Flop is perfect.
Turn is perfect.

At the river you need to evaluate the hands he will call you with and loose.
If he has an Ace the best you will do is split the pot (do you see why?) but will often loose. So I think betting the river is -EV.
If he has a busted flush draw, he won't call.
I'd just check behind and get the free showdown.

[cain06]

The flop raise is good because it lets you see where you stand. If someone is slowplaying a hand, he could re-raise you back since you're already pot commited. In small stakes, people will typically call with anything anyways, so who cares if you raise the flop, people are going to keep calling.

[brooklynjoe]

Yeah, I see that. I should have looked at the action more closely. The BB was the only player to be faced with calling 2 bets cold unless UTG+2 3-bet it. Are you saying though that if you got 3-bet on the flop that you would feel ok with folding to one bet on the river?

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I see that. I should have looked at the action more closely. The BB was the only player to be faced with calling 2 bets cold unless UTG+2 3-bet it. Are you saying though that if you got 3-bet on the flop that you would feel ok with folding to one bet on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he 3 bets this flop, he's telling me that he can beat top pair. I would probably call down, and see what he shows to get a better idea of what he will 3 bet on the cheap street.

[smiely]

[ QUOTE ]
At the river you need to evaluate the hands he will call you with and loose.
If he has an Ace the best you will do is split the pot (do you see why?) but will often loose. So I think betting the river is -EV.
If he has a busted flush draw, he won't call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I noticed that after I posted my initial response. I find that to be a bit of a leak in my game, where I tend to think, "Well, maybe if I bet out anyway he'll fold", or, even worse, don't notice it's a chop-or-lose situation. Most times it doesn't happen, and we'll either chop the pot (sometimes) or I'll lose (often). Guess I gotta reread the Heads Up on the River section of TOP...

[Entity]

Guys,

A loose-passive player won't always have an Ace here, but they'll call with many hands that aren't top pair. Sure, you're chopping quite often, but the rake isn't going to increase by betting, and he'll call with worse hands, which makes it an easy value bet.

Rob

[brooklynjoe]

I see what you mean about it being an informational raise, but if you're not really going to use that information to save a bb on a later street then what's the point? I think you're in a position of having to call this down no matter what. I just think that you'll get more value out of inviting as many people for the ride as possible. If you did hit your flush you could certainly feel good about jamming it even without the information gained from the flop raise.

[Entity]

Everyone,

The flop raise is for value. It's really that simple. You'll have the best hand a rather large portion of the time here. When you don't, you'll usually be drawing to 11 outs, or sometimes to 14 outs. With MP3 calling in between, I'm going to war over this flop: if I get 3-bet, I'm capping. You've got more than enough equity to pull this off.

This is not a "raise for information." It is a raise for value. If it happens to give you some information about how to properly play the turn, you should use that information; in this case, it did. It told you that you're still likely to have the best hand here.

Rob

[djshawk]

On this flop I just dont see where a bet is coming from if its not from an Ace or a flush draw. Especially since most people at this table are passive.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
On this flop I just dont see where a bet is coming from if its not from an Ace or a flush draw. Especially since most people at this table are passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands like JT will frequently bet this flop, even from passive players. The main question on the river is this: what is the range of hands my opponent could have here?

If there is no way that your opponent has any other holding than an Ace or a flush draw, you should check; however, with even some small possibility of another holding, your check should become a bet. There is no downside to a bet here, and there is a slight upside; that swings the scales over to the 50.1% advantage I need to bet here, and I bet.

Rob

[djshawk]

I'm not saying he's not holding it, I just dont think he'll call a river bet with it.

I'm pretty sure you are right, I just can't see it. I think river play is one of the worst parts of my game and am constantly checking through when I should be betting and betting when I should check.

I just can't for the life of me see why somebody would call this bet with anything less than an ace. Well, there is 1 single reason, that it is Party .50/$1 and people call with anything. I'm confused.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying he's not holding it, I just dont think he'll call a river bet with it.

I'm pretty sure you are right, I just can't see it. I think river play is one of the worst parts of my game and am constantly checking through when I should be betting and betting when I should check.

I just can't for the life of me see why somebody would call this bet with anything less than an ace. Well, there is 1 single reason, that it is Party .50/$1 and people call with anything. I'm confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am absolutely, 100% positive that if he is holding a pair that is worse than aces, he is calling with them. That's what bad players do, and that's why we never bluff the river with bad players involved in the hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The other day, in a NL game, I had Quad 5's. I got raised on the river by a made boat, but the guy who was really interesting to me -- someone I know to be very loose-passive -- called both of us down (tripling me up) with Jack high. The board was 55547, and he had JTs. Obviously anecdotal, but loose, passive players will call with far more hands than you give them credit for.

Rob

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont think he'll call a river bet with it.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Well, there is 1 single reason, that it is Party .50/$1 and people call with anything. I'm confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

[brooklynjoe]

Yeah but if the raise is for value I don't see how that works out since the raise may drive people out of the pot.

[Nate_Dogg]

{ <font color="white"> he shows AQ and takes it </font> }

* I still like how I played this one though, it was hard for me to believe someone would limp w/ that hand and I definetly didn't see it coming. As far as the flop I think my raise (for value) was solid. With 9 Spade outs and counting just 1 of the 3 7's as an out gives me pot equity of over 40% so getting extra bets from 2 people was +EV in my mind.

The river bet was questionable I guess - really a matter of opinion and style of the individual probably

[djshawk]

By betting the river

You win 1BB:
-by him calling with something less than an Ace

Gain nothing:
-by him calling with a weak Ace (7 or lower)

Loose 1BB:
-if he calls with A-8 or better

He needs to call with something weeker than and Ace more often than he holds and calls with A-8 for this to be profitable.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
By betting the river

You win 1BB:
-by him calling with something less than an Ace

Gain nothing:
-by him calling with a weak Ace (7 or lower)

Loose 1BB:
-if he calls with A-8 or better

He needs to call with something weeker than and Ace more often than he holds and calls with A-8 for this to be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, thanks? I understand what a value bet is, and I understand that Hero's hand is going to be good here &gt; 50.1% of the time.

Rob

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
it was hard for me to believe someone would limp w/ that hand and I definetly didn't see it coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get used to it. I'm seeing AA, KK and AKs limped regularly in .5/1 on Party.

KO

[dkernler]

[ QUOTE ]

Loose 1BB:
-if he calls with A-8 or better


[/ QUOTE ]
A-8 splits.

P.S. Listen to the monkey.

[djshawk]

I know you do and I know you are right but I can't get it straight in my head. Value betting and what it means is no doubt second nature to you, but its still new to me and I often need to look at it like this to see it.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but if the raise is for value I don't see how that works out since the raise may drive people out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

With one caller trapped in between, you have at worst a 45% share in this pot (a 12-outer against a higher Ace), and at best, 77% equity in this pot (assuming you're up against a decent range of hands that include other Aces, gutshot draws, and hands that have pair outs [5outers]). The raise is for value against 2 players.

Rob

[jar]

Wow. If this thread is any indication, Clark's SS post and the similar post here have really improved the state of the forums. People are actually responding to hand posts with questions rather than posting more hands.

Aside: I raise preflop, and I waffle on value betting the river. The rest is standard.

[GrunchCan]

Entity's got this hand covered.

Next.

[tiltaholic]

hey-

one more thing to add to the balance...given the nature of the board in this hand...sometimes a weaker ace (which isn't actually weaker since it will split) will fold to your bet -- and you win an additional half pot.

[djshawk]

Yep, i've been thinking about this hand more and am coming to see the value bet. If you dont bet they can't call right, and they like to call. Plus there is the small chance you'll fold another ace.