Popular SnG structures

[eastbay]

I am working on some tournament calculator software, and would like to include presets for various tournament structures. Most of the sites don't detail their structures on their web sites, and I only play party these days, so I could use a little help.

If you're interested, can you list for me the site, the kind of tournament (SnG, Step, HU, whatever), and the following information:

# players (only single table tournaments are supported)
starting chips
# blind levels
small/big blind progression
payout schedule

The software will initially be for automating those tedious ICM type calculations you see here all the time now, either by entering information by hand, or by reading in a hand history. I also have medium term plans to generalize it into something far more flexible and general for analyzing SnG decisions.

Thanks for any info. If someone has a good reference link, that would be great. I couldn't find a very good one that was at all recent.

eastbay

[DaffyDuck]

Ultimate Bet SNGs

10 starting players
1000 starting chips
blinds go up every 8 minutes
payout 50%, 30%, 20%
5-10
10-20
15-30
20-40
30-60
50-100
75-150
100-200
150-300
200-400
300-600

Pokerstars SNGs

9 starting players
1500 starting chips
blinds go up every 10 minutes (5 minutes for turbos)
payout 50%, 30%, 20%

10-20
15-30
25-50
50-100
75-150
100-200
200-400
300-600

Hope that helps.

Bob

[eastbay]

Thanks a bunch. That's helpful.

eastbay

[Daliman]

Party
10 players
9 levels
10 hands per level
10/15
15/30
25/50
50/100
100/200
150/300
200/400
250/500
300/600

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]


Pokerstars SNGs

9 starting players
1500 starting chips
blinds go up every 10 minutes (5 minutes for turbos)
payout 50%, 30%, 20%

10-20
15-30
25-50
50-100
75-150
100-200
200-400
300-600

Hope that helps.

Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

Mistake in this one. There are two levels of 100/200, the second having a 25 ante.

[ChrisV]

Paradise structure (http://www.paradisepoker.com/tournaments/mini_tournaments.html)

Pacific structure (http://playersclub.pacificpoker.com/Home.asp?lang=EN&s=092607410645347956&sr=912612&cl nt=0&cid=10&aid=50)

[Zelcious]

It sounds like we are working on something similar.
My project is about specifying stack sizes, blind sizes, range of hands, that a opponent have, will push with, will call with, will call two pushes and so on and then work out $EV through simulation and ICM.

[Zelcious]

I just saw on another post that you've gotten really far with your program. Really impressive work.
I think the critical point besides the analysis your program does is how often you survive. I mean even if you have a move with a slightly positive $EV it can be a bad move if you're gone half of the times. Then you've only have half the times of making another good move. I thought alot about how to take this into consideration. Haven't got a good solution yet, maybe it involves modifying ICM to some degree.
But a tip would be to print "survival" stats. Like how often you double up, how often you loose more then half your stack, how often you're gone and so on...

[Surgie]

InterPoker (and other Crypto Sites) Single Table SNGs
10 starting players
1000 starting chips
blinds go up every 10 hands
payout 50%, 30%, 20%
15/30
30/60
50/100
100/200
200/400
400/600
600/1200
1000/2000


Yes these things are a giant crapshoot, but just thought I'd list them here for completeness /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GFunk911]

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw on another post that you've gotten really far with your program. Really impressive work.
I think the critical point besides the analysis your program does is how often you survive. I mean even if you have a move with a slightly positive $EV it can be a bad move if you're gone half of the times. Then you've only have half the times of making another good move. I thought alot about how to take this into consideration. Haven't got a good solution yet, maybe it involves modifying ICM to some degree.
But a tip would be to print "survival" stats. Like how often you double up, how often you loose more then half your stack, how often you're gone and so on...

[/ QUOTE ]

Curious, how exactly is this not taken into account by the ICM?

[DaffyDuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Pokerstars SNGs

9 starting players
1500 starting chips
blinds go up every 10 minutes (5 minutes for turbos)
payout 50%, 30%, 20%

10-20
15-30
25-50
50-100
75-150
100-200
200-400
300-600

Hope that helps.

Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

Mistake in this one. There are two levels of 100/200, the second having a 25 ante.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I fogot about the antes. In fact, level 6 is 100/200. Level 7 is 100/200 ante 25, Level 8 is 200/400 ante 25 and level 9 is 300/600 ante 50.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw on another post that you've gotten really far with your program. Really impressive work.
I think the critical point besides the analysis your program does is how often you survive. I mean even if you have a move with a slightly positive $EV it can be a bad move if you're gone half of the times. Then you've only have half the times of making another good move. I thought alot about how to take this into consideration. Haven't got a good solution yet, maybe it involves modifying ICM to some degree.
But a tip would be to print "survival" stats. Like how often you double up, how often you loose more then half your stack, how often you're gone and so on...

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, that's the value of ICM right there in a nutshell.

eastbay

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise structure (http://www.paradisepoker.com/tournaments/mini_tournaments.html)

Pacific structure (http://playersclub.pacificpoker.com/Home.asp?lang=EN&s=092607410645347956&sr=912612&cl nt=0&cid=10&aid=50)

[/ QUOTE ]

Does Pacific really escalate their blinds to more chips than exist in the whole SnG like their schedule seems to say? Or is there a max level for SnGs?

eastbay

[Sluss]

Pokerroom
10 Players
1500 Starting Chips
every 10 hands

10-20
15-30
25-50
50-100
75-150
100-200
150-300
200-400
300-600
400-800
500-1000
600-1200

payouts

50% 30% 20%

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just saw on another post that you've gotten really far with your program. Really impressive work.
I think the critical point besides the analysis your program does is how often you survive. I mean even if you have a move with a slightly positive $EV it can be a bad move if you're gone half of the times. Then you've only have half the times of making another good move. I thought alot about how to take this into consideration. Haven't got a good solution yet, maybe it involves modifying ICM to some degree.
But a tip would be to print "survival" stats. Like how often you double up, how often you loose more then half your stack, how often you're gone and so on...

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, that's the value of ICM right there in a nutshell.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Zelcious mentioned one interesting question regarding pushing small edge vs. risk, something concerning me for a while. Say if you are sb with marginal hand and even it might be +EV with bb's calling range, but the risk is too much to justify the move. If you always pushing small edge and get called alot, you ROI are likely very small if it's positive.

On the other hand, what these program failed to capture (hopefully your program would capture) is how to adjust with blinds approaching. Sometimes you have to choose between two -EV move, for example, pushing UTG any two.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

Zelcious mentioned one interesting question regarding pushing small edge vs. risk, something concerning me for a while. Say if you are sb with marginal hand and even it might be +EV with bb's calling range, but the risk is too much to justify the move. If you always pushing small edge and get called alot, you ROI are likely very small if it's positive.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's mostly a non-issue.

The "risk" factor is ostensibly already in a $EV valuation. What you may be alluding to is that valuing a fold may be difficult to do accurately, since for example, there may be action behind you which boosts your $EV significantly over the case of everyone folding behind. I have some thoughts about how to estimate this value.

[ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, what these program failed to capture (hopefully your program would capture) is how to adjust with blinds approaching. Sometimes you have to choose between two -EV move, for example, pushing UTG any two.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could imagine various ways of discounting a fold $EV by, for example, using stack sizes after posting the next hand's blind. It's not clear this is essential, but it's something to think about.

eastbay

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Zelcious mentioned one interesting question regarding pushing small edge vs. risk, something concerning me for a while. Say if you are sb with marginal hand and even it might be +EV with bb's calling range, but the risk is too much to justify the move. If you always pushing small edge and get called alot, you ROI are likely very small if it's positive.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's mostly a non-issue.

The "risk" factor is ostensibly already in a $EV valuation. What you may be alluding to is that valuing a fold may be difficult to do accurately, since for example, there may be action behind you which boosts your $EV significantly over the case of everyone folding behind. I have some thoughts about how to estimate this value.


[/ QUOTE ]

Using an example, let's say 6 handed, your EV=11% after posting (or 0% ROI). Folded to you at sb with either push or fold decision, push has +.x% EV, another words, always pushing will give you x% ROI in the long run. But if bb calling you 25% of time, your chances of out of money is 15% right there. So you might argue that if x is too small, the oppotunity cost for waiting another round is higher. How do you estimate that?