River Action

[Vern]

Table is good, only strong player is immediately to my left.
UTG is loose and passive
MP1 is loose and aggressive pre-flop then wimps out
MP2 is loose passive pre-flop then turns it on if he hits the flop
MP3 is a Jr. LAG, loose and aggressive pre-flop, then neutral-aggressive post flop, usually at the wrong times.
CO is just loose and passive
SB it a TAG
BB is a LAG

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)
Props to Bison for his converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (25.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (18.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (26.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero ?

[young nut]

I said call, and I refer you to a wonderful post by Ed Miller, its a must read:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=462860&amp;fpart= 1&amp;PHPSESSID=

[Vern]

I have read the post, and the book as well. I posted a specific hand, specific reads and one question point.

I don't make a habit of folding in big pots, but this is one where I think it is worth considering. Pros: I have the advantage of closing the action on the river at 28.75:1, huge odds. Cons: 4 to a straight on the board, I still only have an overpair, and by the time I get to make my river decision, there has already been a bet, call and overcall.

I just think this specific decision is not just quickly answered by quoting Ed Miller's general rules, even if in the end, the answer coincides with his advice.

That said, thanks for responding.

Vern

[Stuey]

I have read SSH and the post listed above, both are great. But I picked raise. Very good chance I am wrong but I will explain why I want to raise the river. First these are great players to have at your table you are going to make money off them. Maybe not this hand but if they stay for sure. You waited for a good starting hand so you have to feel your ahead preflop.

You fear trips after the flop. If one of them holds 99,66,22, I am willing to pay him off. I like your play on all streets. Yah I see the str8 developing lets look at that. If he made an str8 on the turn he holds T8, or 85 pay him off he needs the money. If he makes a str8 on the turn he holds JT,AT,A5 or similar. I don’t think he has a str8 if he does I pay.

But by raising here I do a few things I like. I make more when I am right. When I am wrong these two are happy and continue this crazy play and I get them later. I feel a raise on the river will only increase my SD not my long term results, this sounds crazy even as I type it! If I get reraised I call it. When I am beat I don’t show the QQ and if they ask I lie. When I have LAG’s at the table I wait for a good hand and then I push it. When I am wrong it looks very bad and I will get more action in future hands not just from the loose guys. I look forward to hearing why this is so wrong. Deep down I know it is but I won’t stop till I have a reason I believe.

Ps I am NOT doing this at a 15/30 table don’t worry or drool as the case may be.

[crownjules]

Can you fold when you're getting 29:1 odds? I don't think so, even though you're most likely beat here by the guy holding a 10 or 5. That's also the reason why you can't raise IMHO. You're just calling here expecting to lose, but there's the small chance that you may have these guys beat.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you fold when you're getting 29:1 odds? I don't think so, even though you're most likely beat here by the guy holding a 10 or 5. That's also the reason why you can't raise IMHO. You're just calling here expecting to lose, but there's the small chance that you may have these guys beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

[btspider]

too bad MP1 has TT.
CO has a connector two pair.. say 98.
i'll give MP3 66.. but he could table anything.

[tiltaholic]

sanity call?
i don't think you are good 4% of the time.
and we alwasy say don't throw good money after bad. (or is it bad money after good?)
but sometimes, you just need to follow through on your swing even if you know the ball is going in the pond/sand/marsh/highway. it helps you maintain focus for the next swing.
and...maybe you'll get a really nice 28BB present.

[droolie]

I call this because I don't like throwing up in my mouth when I see I would have won a 28BB pot had a thrown in one more BB closing the action.

[charlie_t_jr]

I have my doubts your good, but you no what they say about big pots, and calling one bet...closing the action, gotta call.

[flopwell]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Vern]

While I agree with this, and did it, what hands do you put these guys on?

I figure MP1 raised/called pre-flop, so I put him on JJ-88 or AKx-AJx and ATs KQx and KJs at that point. On the flop he led into a pre-flop re-raiser and a pre-flop player who cold called two then capped. I now put him on a set of 9's, or JJ-TT. Suited broadways cards are not betting this flop, not from a wimp post flop. He hit this somehow to put the initial bet in, even if hitting just means he has an overpair. He just calls the flop re-raise, so I discount 99 (almost), he likely has JJ-TT. He calls two cold on the turn, I am now sure he has JJ-TT, top set would raise here. He then leads on the river, I expect to see TT from him.

MP3 Cold called 2 pre-flop then capped when it came back to him. I put him on AA-KK or AKs pre-flop. Maybe the other QQ, but unlikely. On the flop he raises, he could still have any of those hands and play it this way. When he fails to cap my three-bet, I start to suspect AKs, likely one of the the suits on the board. He does a stop-go between the flop/turn, that tells me he is confused since there are no draws the Turn helps that he caps pre-flop with but it makes me think AA-KK again more than AK, unless it is A/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I believe I am ahead of MP1 and MP3, I have to raise this turn bet, even with a caller in between. On the river MP3's call confuses me, since I don't think AK would call this river, maybe he got scared/weak with his AA-KK.

CO Has me totally confused, he has done nothing but call, his usual tactic, so he has any two cards. But again, he overcalls the river.

So on the river, I have a loose-aggressive pre-flop player who backs off post flop and gets weak, betting into three opponents when there has been a raise or re-raise on every street. MP1 has to have TT, MP3 likely to have AA-KK and CO likes his hand enough to call, although in honesty, it could be with 32o for bottom pair no kicker.

Given the reads, I think the call is margina to -ev. Since I can put my sanity and not liking the taste of barf as +ev to balance, I errored in calling.

MP1 turned over T/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif for a straight six to ten
MP3 turned over A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif for Ace High (ok I need better notes on this guy)
CO turned over 9/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif for two pair, nines and eights

So I came in third in a four man race that only pays first place. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Vern

Thanks for all the votes and response.

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
too bad MP1 has TT.
CO has a connector two pair.. say 98.
i'll give MP3 66.. but he could table anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO confused me more than MP3, even though I got it wrong in the end. You sir amaze me.

Vern

[Shillx]

I clicked fold. In general, if your hand is good enough to be the 2nd overcaller, you should be raising. I think it applies pretty well here because your hand clearly isn't worth a raise.

Brad

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
I clicked fold. In general, if your hand is good enough to be the 2nd overcaller, you should be raising. I think it applies pretty well here because your hand clearly isn't worth a raise.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]
If I wasn't closing the action, I think I would fold would be a better choice here. This is one BB I can live with losing here though. Thanks.

Vern