some trouble hands [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

BadBatsuMaru

02-18-2005, 05:38 AM

Now first keep in mind that I've only been playing O8 a few weeks. I've read Zee's and Cappelletti's books, but I still have a lot I need to absorb. The problems I have really shouldn't require too much thought; they seem like fairly common situations that I'd just like to get some opinions on.

Hand 1:
Party Poker 0.5/1 O8 (10 handed)

Here's a table I've only been at one orbit, and I don't recognize anybody.

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, button calls, Hero checks.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players) 6 SB
Checked to button, button bets...

I seriously considered folding here, but I have very little respect for the button betting in these 0.5/1 games. Even the most passive fish seem to think it is their duty to bet with absolutely nothing from the button, and this guy seems pretty active. The checking all the way around makes me think that KX/images/graemlins/spade.gif may not be out there. I don't like 2 low cards on the board, but half my outs do keep a low from being made. I decide to take one off. Looking back, I think I should've folded, because I really wouldn't like being in without the nuts if a low spade did come, and I probably don't have the odds to draw to just my high outs.

SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players) 5.5 BB

SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Obviously MP1 is representing the nut flush here. I'm thinking this is a situation that I should probably fold about half the time and call down about half the time. I think I call down these situations too much, but at the same time I don't like betting and folding on the same round, and once I call one bet I should probably be showing it down if I can for one more bet. If I had a read on this guy as a solid player, I'd be inclined just to fold immediately.

River: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players) 11.25 BB
Hero checks, MP1 bets, button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Results in white below: 
MP1 shows [ Ks, Kh, 8s, 4c ] a flush, ace high.
button doesn't show [ Qd, 2d, 3h, Th ] a straight, ten to ace.
Hero doesn't show [ 7h, Qs, 4s, 2h ] a flush, ace high.
MP1 wins $14.25 from the main pot with a flush, ace high with king kicker.
There was no qualifying low hand.


Hand 2:
Party Poker 0.5/1 O8 (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players) 4 SB
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, SB folds.

I have a lock on low if it hits, 2 straight flush outs, and it looks like 19 straight or flush outs.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players) 3 BB

Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

That certainly didn't help, and now I have nothing but high card A and haven't even made my low. I probably still have 20 outs to low, 19 outs to high and 14 outs to scoop. With the chance of scooping, I assume this is a betting situation instead of a check/call situation.

River: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players) 4.5 BB

Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Salvaged the low, but all villain needs is A-3-anything to three-quarter me. I assume I should've check/called here.

Final Pot: 6.5 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows [ 5h, 6d, Ac, 3h ] high card ace.
Hero shows 8,4,3,2,A for low.
UTG+1 shows [ Th, 7c, 3s, Ah ] a pair of tens.
UTG+1 shows 8,4,3,2,A for low.
UTG+1 wins $3.25 from the main pot with a pair of tens.
UTG+1 wins Lo ($1.62) from the main pot with 8,4,3,2,A.
Hero wins Lo ($1.63) from the main pot with 8,4,3,2,A.

UTG+1 wins $4.87
Hero wins $1.63



Hand 3:
Party Poker 0.5/1 O8 (8 handed)

BB is BobbieELee, a guy who's 3 or 4-tabling and playing really slowly. He hasn't impressed me, although he's playing slightly tighter than the rest of the table, which is in a bit of a tightening up and maybe falling apart stage.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero limps, MP1 limps, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 limps, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

So the 7 is pretty useless, but I doubt a suited A3 is a bad call in any position 8-handed with a poster.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players) 6 SB

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB calls.

It looks like I'm 2.8-to-1 to scoop this one. At this point I told BB that he was slow as hell and probably shouldn't be 4-tabling; he promptly bet out the turn.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players) 4.5 BB

BB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Betting the low card has me a little worried that I'm getting quartered for low and only drawing at my flush for high, and no matter what I probably can't raise since I want the overcall.

River: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players) 7 BB

BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, BB calls.

Here's where I'm confused. OK, I totally missed high, and I may be getting quartered for low. In a best-case scenario I'm getting the full low, getting the overcall and gaining $0.50 for my bet. In an almost worst-case scenario, I'm getting quartered, not getting the overcall and losing $0.75 for my bet. Should I be glad to see it checked around?

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows [ Td, 3h, Ah, 7c ] high card ace.
Hero shows 6,4,3,2,A for low.
MP1 shows [ Qc, As, 2s, 2c ] three of a kind, twos.
BB shows [ 4c, 3d, 5s, Kd ] a straight, two to six.
BB shows 6,5,4,3,2 for low.
BB wins $5 from the main pot with a straight, two to six.
Hero wins Lo ($5) from the main pot with 6,4,3,2,A.

johnnybeef

02-18-2005, 08:23 AM

omaha 8 is a game where 95% of your decisions are on the flop and preflop. when selecting a starting hand it is necesarry to ask yourself how likely it is to scoop the pot and what has to hit in order for that to happen. that being said here we go...

hand 1:

preflop: terrible hand as it is a longshot to scoop with (a35 would be your best chance), but you are in the bb so lets see a flop.

flop: this flop hit you pretty well you have a draw to the second nut high and low, the pot is big, you have just enough going on that you should see the turn for 7:1.

turn: with a raise and a call you are likely drawing to half the pot which is a losing proposition considering that you are drawing to the non nuts.

river: you missed your low, once again with a bet and a call, you are very likely beat.

hand 2:

preflop: little chance of scooping nut once again you are in the bb.

flop: you are very likely to get the nut low and an ace, 3 or 5 will likely give you a scoop. i don't like your bet as it will drive a few people out. remember, if you are only winning half of a pot, you want as many people in as possible. furthermore, by the turn many people will catch enough to stay in on and it will be much more expensive then. check and call.

turn: you are heads up now which is a terrible place to be in this part of the game. you have come out betting the hole way, there is no turning back now.

river: nut low arrives. if you feel you can bluff him then shoot for it other wise check and call as you will splitting the pot and will most likely lose money to the rake.

hand 3:

preflop: you are utg with a very marginal hand. you need hearts and a deuce to scoop which is not very likely, do your self a favor and quit playing hands with 7s, 8s, 9s, or 10s from under the gun (unless they have a suited A2). this one is an easy fold.

flop: wow what a flop for you. you are very likely to win 1/2 the pot with a wheel and nut flush draw. check and call to keep opponents in and then charge them on the expensive streets (keeping as many people in the pot is a key concept in omaha hilo)

turn: nut low is there you correctly called to build a pot.

river: missed your flush and wheel, time to value bet.

*spoiler below*

i noticed that you got quartered on hand 2. this is something that happens in this game, don't lose any sleep over it.

hope this helps,
johnny

Moneyline

02-18-2005, 04:10 PM

Hand 1:

Flop: You don't need to call to keep the button honest... trust me, plenty of other players will call for you /images/graemlins/wink.gif. That said, I think calling is a good play here as long as the game is passive. True, your flush draw is only to the 2nd nuts, but 2nd nut flush draws are better when the ace of that suit is on board. The reason is because it's much more common to play hands with a suited ace (like A2xx suited) than a suited king (like K2xx suited). You also have a draw to the 2nd nut low, and a gutterball draw to a wheel. So even though you don't have any nut draws other than a 3, you do have a decent chance to scoop. You aren't exactly sure which of your outs is good, but some of them probably are. I think you made the right play by calling.

Turn: I would also bet. The raise may actually be good for you, because if another player has a 24 low draw they will probably fold. IMO, part of the reason to call on the flop is because you trust your poker skills & instincts to let you know if your non-nut hand is good on later streets. I know you say that you don't have any reads, but this is something you should really try to do. In 08, it's relatively easy to get reads on people because a large percentage of the hands get shown down. If a player jumps in the pot with rags or raises with hands that are a long way from the nuts, then you have a pretty good read on that player. I know you said you had only been at the table for an orbit, but if you aren't multi-tabling you still should have been able to get at least a couple reads by now... lecture over /images/graemlins/wink.gif

River: I would check/call too, a low card would have been nicer, but the pot is so big I think you have to call.

After checking your results, I see that you were drawing almost dead, but I still think you played the hand fine.

Hand 2:

Preflop: If your opponents in the pot are loose, then I would raise for value. If they are tight or even somewhat tight I would check.

Flop: Great flop. Obvious bet.

Turn: Keep betting. You have buckets of outs, and your opponent may fold to your bet. This is a classic semi-bluffing situation.

River: Betting here is automatic, IMO. You have a lock on the low, but only ace high for the high half. It would suck if your opponent was on something like a king high flush draw and you allowed him to show the hand down for free and grab half the pot with a pair. It ends up that you got quartered, but don't let getting quartered turn you into a scared, weak/tight postflop player. I think you played the hand fine... except for maybe preflop

Hand 3:

Preflop: This is just about the worst hand you could get with a suited A3 combo. Regardless, I think a call is automatic.

Flop: Great flop. Nice bet.

Turn: I would call too, I wouldn't want to drive out the other player the times I scoop.

River: I would bet here. If I was getting quartered by the BB I would expect him to bet again on the river. This is a value bet... and there's even an outside chance of everyone folding.

The one thing I don't like about this hand is your comment to the BB. For one thing, comments like this are frequently a tell that the commenter is steaming. There's nothing wrong with a polite comment asking a player to try to play faster, but "slow as hell" comments may actually make the player play slower just to piss you off more. There are enough grumps playing 08 already, don't become one yourself /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

BadBatsuMaru

02-18-2005, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I don't like about this hand is your comment to the BB. For one thing, comments like this are frequently a tell that the commenter is steaming. There's nothing wrong with a polite comment asking a player to try to play faster, but "slow as hell" comments may actually make the player play slower just to piss you off more. There are enough grumps playing 08 already, don't become one yourself /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't steaming; I just like making smartass comments sometimes I guess /images/graemlins/smile.gif

A friend of mine (well, not THAT much of a friend seeing as he's a real ass) does really well at $25 and $50 NLHE tables, and he's constantly trying to see just how much he can piss people off... but I guess that isn't a valid O8 strategy.